SMU Law v. UofH Law (Austin, Lubbock: credit, school, university)

[awecelot]

Originally Posted by loves2read

getting a job as an attorney and getting a great job as an attorney is the difference between UT-Austin Law School and others in TX
TTech grads have strong alumni program behind them but UT-Law is just head and shoulders above other law schools in TX and most of the country--you can't say that about other law schools even SMU's...

Oh, definitely...UT law is a top-top-top notch program. There are VERY FEW law schools that have a better reputation than UT Law. Off the top of my head, there is Harvard, Yale, and that's pretty much it.

[Visitor2007]

Originally Posted by teatime

Tech's law school is VERY highly ranked.[/url]

You're a funny guy.

I apologize if you were serious. And if you're serious, let me ask you this question, since when is Tier 3 considered as VERY highly ranked?

When it comes to ranking and employment stats, UT, SMU, UH, and Baylor are consistantly higher than Texas Tech and some may even include South Texas College of Law. STCL is located in the center of Houston, a big legal market, while Texas Tech is in the middle of no where. With that being said, as a resident of Texas, one should go to Texas Tech over STCL because of the low cost.

Speaking of bar passage rate, all of the above law schools (UT, UH, SMU, Baylor, and South Texas) in addition to St. Mary have higher bar passage rate on the latest exam. As matter of fact, Texas Tech's passage rate is lower than the state average only beating Texas Southern and Texas Wesleyan. So, Texas Tech's bar passage is nothing to brag about.

[Visitor2007]

Originally Posted by awecelot

Oh, definitely...UT law is a top-top-top notch program. There are VERY FEW law schools that have a better reputation than UT Law. Off the top of my head, there is Harvard, Yale, and that's pretty much it.

Wrong! Here is a list of law schools, that have better reputation (and employment rate and prestige) than UT law (in addition to Yale and Harvard):

Stanford

University of Chicago

Columbia

NYU

University of Michigan

Penn

University of Virginia

Berkeley

Northwestern

Duke

Cornell

Georgetown

(almost in that exact order, currently).

They are collectively known as the TRUE NATIONAL LAW SCHOOLS and not regional law schools because of their strong national repuation, the fact that they consistantly switch position with each other but still within the Top 14 exclussivelyand the fact that they all at one point were at the top 10 position.

In addition to the above Top 14 law schools, many still consider Vandy and UCLA to be better than UT. With that being said, UT is still a solid top 20 law school.

[awecelot]

Originally Posted by Visitor2007

Wrong! Here is a list of law schools that have better reputation than UT law (in addition to Yale and Harvard):

Stanford

University of Chicago

Columbia

NYU

University of Michigan

Penn

University of Virginia

Berkeley

Northwestern

Duke

Cornell

Georgetown

(almost in that exact order, currently).

They are collectively known as the TRUE NATIONAL LAW SCHOOLS and not regional law schools because of their strong national repuation, the fact that they consistantly switch position with each other but still within the top 14 exclussivelyand the fact that they all at one point were at the top 10 position.

In addition to the above 14 law schools, many still consider Vandy and UCLA to be better than UT. With that being said, UT is still a solid top 20 law school.

Are you basing your list on current rankings? Reputation does not always follow rankings.

I'll give you Chicago, Penn, UVA, Duke, Cornell. UT is about equal in reputation to the rest on your list (maybe with the exception of Stanford & Michigan).

The reason why UT has a reputation that exceeds its ranking is that some of its individual departments are ranked with the Yale's and Harvard's of the world (i.e. Constitutional Law). This contributes, rightly or wrongly, to the increased reputation of the school as a whole, even while some of its lower-performing departments hold the school's total ranking back.

[Visitor2007]

Originally Posted by awecelot

Are you basing your list on current rankings? Reputation does not always follow rankings.

No matter how you twist this, you're not going to win. I am basing my list on current ranking, historic ranking, reputation among judges and attorneys, employment stats, clerkship stats, etc.

I'll give you Chicago, Penn, UVA, Duke, Cornell. UT is about equal in reputation to the rest on your list (maybe with the exception of Stanford & Michigan).

So, you're "giving" me:

Yale
Harvard
Stanford
Chicago
Penn
Michigan
UVA
Duke
Cornell

And that would leave out Berkeley, NYU, Northwestern, Georgetown, and Columbia?

The reason why UT has a reputation that exceeds its ranking is that some of its individual departments are ranked with the Yale's and Harvard's of the world (i.e. Constitutional Law). This contributes, rightly or wrongly, to the increased reputation of the school as a whole, even while some of its lower-performing departments hold the school's total ranking back.

It's clear that you have never attended law school.

[awecelot]

Visitor - I'm not arguing that any of these schools are not great schools...they all are.

Berkeley has long been ranked very highly, but their graduates tend to stay on the West Coast, just as UT's tend to stay in the Southwest. This makes the overall national reputation about equal.

NYU has just recently catapulted up the rankings. The dean of their law school behind that catapult is now the dean at UT Law.

I honestly do not know much about Northwestern, but I do know that they tend to feed top Midwestern law firms as well as clerkships.

Georgetown's rankings have been similar to UT's for a long while now.

Columbia...I am going to give you. My mistake on that one, I just missed it.

And like I said, my initial post was off the top of my head...and I really just didn't think much. Now, if you were hiring within the state of Texas, it would probably look more like that.

No, I have not attended law school. However, I know many lawyers who have said the same thing that I did, which you quoted and replied that "it's clear that (I) have never attended law school." Are you saying that they gave me bad information?

[Visitor2007]

Originally Posted by awecelot

Are you saying that they gave me bad information?

They are misinformed or bias. Those attorneys you're referring to are probably local attorneys practicing in Texas and thus not know much about other law schools outside the state. For example, many poeple, including attorneys in some cities whithin Alabama think that Alabama is a peer law school of UT, Notre Dame, or even Vandy, but we know that's not true. Because University of Alambama School of Law has such strong long tradition of great reputation among all the cities in Alabama, people in that state is going to think that it's one of the best in the nation, while the truth is that there are many schools much better than Alabama.

Those top 14 law schools are national law schools and "better" than the others for reasons, just like UT is better than the rest of the law schools in Texas. A UT degree is respected in say New York, but not at the same level as Geogetown or Berkeley just like a UH law degree is respected in Dallas but not at the same level as a UT law degree.

[Eleanor Rigby]

Seriously, I can't believe that anyone would think that UT is a peer of Boalt Hall or Northwestern. It's an excellent law school, but it's not yet ranked or respected like those other schools. Unfortunately, a lot of Big Law firms in the major cities still have the impression of UT has a provincial school. If going to Columbia or Boalt Hall is like being a Sony flat screen, UT is like being a Vizio - just as nice, similar components, but no fancy brand name.

On the OP's question - the advice on picking a city before you pick a law school is excellent. I was accepted to South Texas School of Law, Tech, and St. Mary's. I chose to go to St. Mary's because I am from San Antonio and want to stay and practice in San Antonio. While StMu Law is no great shakes in the rankings, it has a monopoly on the legal establishment in San Antonio and points south. The school's strength lies in getting its graduates jobs in the San Antonio legal community, and in the legal communities in places like Laredo and McAllen where there tend to be large concentrations of graduates.

Sit down and think, what city would you prefer to spend the next 8-10 years in? That's assuming three years of law school plus 5-7 years establishing a career (clerking, working as an associate, etc). While it's very possible your first job out of law school will be in a different city (several of my friends who graduated last year from St. Mary's got jobs in Dallas and Austin), it is even more likely that, due to the connections your school will have in the community, that your job will be in the same city you attended school.

You are lucky. They are both great schools, and I have had friends who have been succesful and happy at both. I think it's really going to come down to the city you want to be tied to for the next several years.

(Also, just like to comment that after a long time spent wandering the wilderness, St. Mary's has in the past few years gotten back on track. The passage rate on the July bar was 88%, putting us just a few percentage points behind the big dogs like Baylor, UT and SMU)

[Visitor2007]

Originally Posted by Eleanor Rigby

Seriously, I can't believe that anyone would think that UT is a peer of Boalt Hall or Northwestern. It's an excellent law school, but it's not yet ranked or respected like those other schools.

I agree.

While StMu Law is no great shakes in the rankings, it has a monopoly on the legal establishment in San Antonio and points south.

I disagree. UT is only an hour away and UH and South Texas are only 2-3 hours away from San Antonio. Reputable law firms will choose a UH grad over a St. Mary grad with everything being equal. With that being said, there are many St. Mary law grads without a job now. But, if you're in the top 20% or on law review, you should be fine.

I guess that you're still in law school and not knowledgable about the "real world" legal market yet. You will once you've graduated and passed the bar.

[teatime]

Um, I'm not a "guy." Use some reasoning skills, please. What "guy" would name himself "teatime"? Doubtful that even a gay guy would.

Oh, I'm quite serious and VERY much aware of how people from the other universities like to look down their noses at Tech, laugh at Lubbock, etc. But, as the mother of a Red Raider, I know that TTU offers quality programs and a great education. The articles that cite Tech's passing rate on the Bar and job placement record aren't joking, either.

Finally, some of us would live just about any place that isn't Austin and we're not impressed with its "aura" or pretentiousness.

Originally Posted by Visitor2007

You're a funny guy.

I apologize if you were serious. And if you're serious, let me ask you this question, since when is Tier 3 considered as VERY highly ranked?

When it comes to ranking and employment stats, UT, SMU, UH, and Baylor are consistantly higher than Texas Tech and some may even include South Texas College of Law. STCL is located in the center of Houston, a big legal market, while Texas Tech is in the middle of no where. With that being said, as a resident of Texas, one should go to Texas Tech over STCL because of the low cost.

Speaking of bar passage rate, all of the above law schools (UT, UH, SMU, Baylor, and South Texas) in addition to St. Mary have higher bar passage rate on the latest exam. As matter of fact, Texas Tech's passage rate is lower than the state average only beating Texas Southern and Texas Wesleyan. So, Texas Tech's bar passage is nothing to brag about.