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Acajack... Watch that video clip please and let me know your thoughts.
I was shocked by it but I was not scared. Frankly I am shocked by a lot of things that humans think and do, and not only muslims. The Westboro Baptist Church (or whatever) types in the US freak me out as well. (Note that this video is part of a series this girl did on "My Hometown Fanatics" and also featured British Christian extremists and other groups as well.)
So why I am not afraid you might ask? Because I think that the people who think like the "us" I am a part of will win out in the end. Because one of the reasons that these UK muslims are so adamant and abrasive is precisely because they see their grip on their own children slipping away from them as they taste the freedom that western liberal society can afford them.
There will be bumps on the road for sure. But we shall prevail. (Sounds messianic I know...)
Living in Quebec, I am also confident that the society in which I live is perhaps less likely that some others might be to get cold feet, apologize "for being itself" and allow its core values to be stepped on in order to simply appear "nice".
As I said, there will be bumps on the road but we will stay on course.
Good point Acajack. Calls for a good debate. You are right, it is not always fear. But it is still oppression.
What is voluntary in a context where men (her uncle, in her old country) have certain expectations? And you're guaranteed to be treated in a certain way if you don't veil yourself in a country like her old country.
We have to be very honest about the constraints that these women are placed under.
Even in cases where it is their "choice", of course it's related to power relationships between men and women, and especially the idea that the female form and even the hair on their heads are somehow something so provocative (and in some cases shameful) that they have to be hidden away lest they provoke social unrest.
Even in cases where it is their "choice", of course it's related to power relationships between men and women, and especially the idea that the female form and even the hair on their heads are somehow something so provocative (and in some cases shameful) that they have to be hidden away lest they provoke social unrest.
lol .. if you are willing to concede that then why have been debating this from the wrong side? Were you just playing devil's advocate?
This is exactly my point. We are assuming the woman is forced to wear a burqa and is being oppressed in some inhumane manner. Some women raised in the "old country" or "new country" may actually want to wear it willingly because this is all they know and it is part of the culture they are raised in, as odd as it is from our western viewpoint.
True. It is habit and trandition.
However, after moving to Canada, and if given the choice and flexibility (in the absence of fear from men), do you really think most of them will still voluntarily choose to wear those knowing that they don't have to whatsoever and there is no consequence from not wearing them?
An outright ban might be controversial and probably deprives those who truly want to wear burqas, however, I think it liberates more from "having to wear them". Here, I think the pro outweighs the con.
I think the number of women who think "I have to wear them due to my religion to avoid criticism" must be significantly higher than thos who think "I really want to wear them even if the men don't expect me to". Don't you think?
You posts were defending:
The burqa = freedom of choice side
I don't recall clearly taking sides either way. I think the issue is a grey one and to be honest I am not particularly pro-burqa because like others here I fully know what it represents. That said I would probably not go so far as to ban it in public places like they did in France and other countries. Freedom of choice also includes the freedom to make bad or unfortunate choices, and even choices for the wrong reasons.
That said public employees like school teachers, etc. should not be wearing burqas or anything else concealing their faces.
You driver's licence photo should show your face, and you should not be able to vote wearing a veil either.
I am not super keen on covering up windows of swimming pools and gyms, etc. for "modesty" periods for certain groups, be they muslim or others. As I think this just sends the wrong message - mostly about women's bodies, and how they dress, and how they are allegedly "provocative" for simply looking like what they look like.
I am also against the police sending only male officers to deal with members of certain communities.
I also am dismayed when I hear as I did on the news that French universities are running into challenges because many students of certain religions are demanding female-only or male-only working groups of their professors. Sorry, but you are in university, and you work in the groups with the other students who are assigned to you to work with and that's it. If you don't like it, then GTFO.
A few months ago I was listening to the CBC Radio show Intersections and they were talking about a new city pool in the Toronto district of Regent Park that had been newly built or renovated. They set up curtains on the windows that are pulled down for women-only swims that are meant to accommodate the concerns of muslim women in the community.
indicated that this accommodation was a good integrative measure to bring muslim women into wider Canadian society.
One thing that jumped out at me about this particular councillor is that her normal tone of voice seems to be very hushed tones, almost whispering. Seems indicative of a very self-effacing personality which was quite interesting given the particularities of the pool project she led in her ward.
Politically, I am generally of the left-wing persuasion, but if there is one thing that gets on my nerves about the left, it is its poo-pooing and tolerance of "illiberal" and even unacceptable behaviours in the name of cultural open-mindness.
Oh... look honey. There's a lady walking five feet behind behind her husband, carrying a child in her arms, and holding two others by the hand, plus all the shopping bags, dressed in black from head to toe with only her eyes showing through a small screen, in 35C heat.
Isn't it great how our city/province/country has this wonderful diversity, and aren't we all such great human beings for accepting and tolerating it! Let's all give ourselves a medal now.
Freedom of choice also includes the freedom to make bad or unfortunate choices, and even choices for the wrong reasons.
No. That is not true. I am not allowed to walk naked (bad decision) in public. Also, sects that are proponents of polygamy are not allowed to freely practice their religion in Canada. In many cases women say that they are willingly entering polygamous relationships and that it is a part of their culture and the word of their god. Where is freedom of choice or religion in these cases?
All this is a long way of saying that..... ...if you understand the ills behing the idea of the burqa then why are you not for banning it completely?
Quote:
There - happy now?
I am getting there. You just need to go all the way and I will be joyous.
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