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Even if that were true, it has no bearing on her case.
They bearing here is that the system is weighted heavily towards severely punishing the less fortunate, while slapping the rich on the wrist for similar infractions.
It’s important to remember that Van Houten’s original 1971 conviction was reversed in 1976. Thereafter she was retried in 1977 on 1st degree murder charges; this trial ended with a hung jury as the jury couldn’t convict based on van houten’s state of mind (the basis of a 1st degree murder conviction).
Van Houten was released from prison pending a 3rd trial in 1978 and lived on the outside for almost a year. The 3rd trial saw prosecutor Steven Kay opt for a Felony Murder charge given the results of van houten’s 2nd trial. Too risky to try for a Murder 1 conviction again that could have resulted in a not guilty verdict and Van Houten’s release.
Felony Murder being that Van Houten’s presence during the commission of a burglary (the felony) made her liable for the subsequent deaths of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca. A felony murder conviction premised on a burglary in CA carries with it 1st degree murder liability for any deaths during the commission of the felony.
Patty Hearst was convicted on Felony Murder; her presence and participation in the bank robbery that resulted in the death of a bank customer made Hearst guilty of 1st degree murder by her presence and participation in the underlying bank robbery.
Even her crime partner Tex Watson said Van Houten was scared to death in the LaBianca home but Manson ordered that everyone get their hands dirty. Van Houten, age 19, stabbed Rosemary LaBianca post-mortem after pretty much being forced down to the floor to do it by Watson.
It’s time for Van Houten to be released.
A murder was committed during the robbery of the Hibernia Bank by the SLA and Patty Hearst was present in the bank. She did not fire a gun. Patty Hearst was not convicted of felony murder. In the end, she was convicted of one bank robbery. Her attorney, F Lee Bailey reached an agreement with the government not to prosecute her for the robbery that involved the killing of a bank customer. The government had reasons for willing to make this deal with Bailey. There were many unique facts in this case. The most unique one was Patty began her involvement with the SLA when she was forcibly kidnapped at gun point from her home.
Whether we call it felony murder or first degree murder, Van Houten wielded a knife and participated in the brutal stabbing murder of the La Bianca's. No one forced Van Houten to join Manson. It was done quite voluntarily. Other people, Linda Kasabian, successfully resisted participating in the La Bianca murders. Nor, did Van Houten ever show remorse or contrition for her acts until she landed in prison.
The system does not always yield the same results. Yet, it is the system that we have and there are often nuances in facts that make the results different. It can be a complex thing. Many people cannot tell the difference between one shade of blue and a slightly lighter or darker shade.
I will repeat that the Van Houten case is a tough one for me. I might feel differently if there was not so much brutality involved in the Tate LaBianca murders.
A murder was committed during the robbery of the Hibernia Bank by the SLA and Patty Hearst was present in the bank. She did not fire a gun. Patty Hearst was not convicted of felony murder. In the end, she was convicted of one bank robbery. Her attorney, F Lee Bailey reached an agreement with the government not to prosecute her for the robbery that involved the killing of a bank customer. The government had reasons for willing to make this deal with Bailey. There were many unique facts in this case. The most unique one was Patty began her involvement with the SLA when she was forcibly kidnapped at gun point from her home.
Whether we call it felony murder or first degree murder, Van Houten wielded a knife and participated in the brutal stabbing murder of the La Bianca's. No one forced Van Houten to join Manson. It was done quite voluntarily. Other people, Linda Kasabian, successfully resisted participating in the La Bianca murders. Nor, did Van Houten ever show remorse or contrition for her acts until she landed in prison.
The system does not always yield the same results. Yet, it is the system that we have and there are often nuances in facts that make the results different. It can be a complex thing. Many people cannot tell the difference between one shade of blue and a slightly lighter or darker shade.
I will repeat that the Van Houten case is a tough one for me. I might feel differently if there was not so much brutality involved in the Tate LaBianca murders.
My mistake on Hearst conviction; she was present at the bank robbery though during which a murder was committed. Hearst also had f lee bailey as her attorney.
Hearst voluntarily went into the bank, actually quite a willing participant and had only been in the SLAs clutches for 2 months before she emerged as Tanya, the revolutionary fighter coerced by Cinque (a la Manson). Hearst readily and quickly adopted the SLA credo despite being taken at gun point. Hearst should have faced a felony murder charge.
Why didn’t Van Houten get a 1st degree conviction otherwise? Why the conviction via Felony Murder in the end? The requisite mental intent was lacking for straight up 1st degree murder.
Kasabian wasn’t ordered into the LaBianca residence but was present at and witness to the Tate murders so I’m not sure where her successful resistance came into things regarding the LaBianca homicides.
Politics is keeping Van Houten in jail at this point. Hearst served minimal time and was deservedly sent-up iby Hall & Oates in “Rich Girl”. The system does indeed have different results and having lots of $ with a big name is a great start in reaping a favorable result.
Factually, Hearst is as guilty as Van Houten. The fact that someone like Hearst was only charged with bank robbery is a travesty.
They bearing here is that the system is weighted heavily towards severely punishing the less fortunate, while slapping the rich on the wrist for similar infractions.
Less fortunate? LVH was from an affluent family.
What, Manson and followers should not have been severely punished???
My mistake on Hearst conviction; she was present at the bank robbery though during which a murder was committed. Hearst also had f lee bailey as her attorney.
Hearst voluntarily went into the bank, actually quite a willing participant and had only been in the SLAs clutches for 2 months before she emerged as Tanya, the revolutionary fighter coerced by Cinque (a la Manson). Hearst readily and quickly adopted the SLA credo despite being taken at gun point. Hearst should have faced a felony murder charge.
Why didn’t Van Houten get a 1st degree conviction otherwise? Why the conviction via Felony Murder in the end? The requisite mental intent was lacking for straight up 1st degree murder.
Kasabian wasn’t ordered into the LaBianca residence but was present at and witness to the Tate murders so I’m not sure where her successful resistance came into things regarding the LaBianca homicides.
Politics is keeping Van Houten in jail at this point. Hearst served minimal time and was deservedly sent-up iby Hall & Oates in “Rich Girl”. The system does indeed have different results and having lots of $ with a big name is a great start in reaping a favorable result.
Factually, Hearst is as guilty as Van Houten.
I think many people gloss over the impact of being kidnapped at gun point and dragged into a car when they consider the Patty Hearst case. Many people who are the victim of violent crimes experience PTSD or other disorders. They don't affect everyone the same way. What would you do to survive if you were kidnapped by a band of violent armed people who threw you in a closet for days? Hearst states she was raped by Cinque. I do not know if that was the case or not. However, I can just imagine how frightening the whole experience would be. Most of what Patty Hearst did that was criminal occurred after another event. The SLA band had been hiding in a home in a Los Angeles suburb. The police located the home and the house caught fire and those inside were killed. Patty just missed being in the home because she was with Bill and Emily Harris. I think a normal person looking at the pictures of that home burning down and those people dying inside could easily conclude that the police would never take them alive. That maybe part of Patty's joining the SLA and casting her lot with them. What happened to Patty is far from a black and white situation. Ultimately, I understood why the jury convicted her of bank robbery and why she served some time in prison. I also understood why she was pardoned later on.
There is a saying in the law that "tough cases make bad law". Patty Hearst's case is indeed a very tough case because clearly the kidnapping was involuntary and no crimes would have been committed if she hadn't been kidnapped. At what point did her actions become voluntary? I think its difficult to find a clear line.
Van Houten's situation is simply different to me. No one made her join up with Manson. No one made her go into the La Bianca house. No one made her do the stabbing. Plus, she showed no contrition over her acts until she had spent years in prison.
I still am not saying she shouldn't be paroled after all these years. I am saying I could go either way on it and I'm glad I do not have to make that decision.
Last edited by markg91359; 02-14-2019 at 11:23 AM..
I think many people gloss over the impact of being kidnapped at gun point and dragged into a car when they consider the Patty Hearst case. Many people who are the victim of violent crimes experience PTSD or other disorders. They don't affect everyone the same way. What would you do to survive if you were kidnapped by a band of violent armed people who threw you in a closet for days? Hearst states she was raped by Cinque. I do not know if that was the case or not. However, I can just imagine how frightening the whole experience would be. Most of what Patty Hearst did that was criminal occurred after another event. The SLA band had been hiding in a home in a Los Angeles suburb. The police located the home and the house caught fire and those inside were killed. Patty just missed being in the home because was with Bill and Emily Harris. I think a normal person looking at the pictures of that home burning down and those people dying inside could easily conclude that the police would never take them alive. That maybe part of Patty's joining the SLA and casting her lot with them. What happened to Patty is far from a black and white situation. Ultimately, I understood why the jury convicted her of bank robbery and why she served some time in prison. I also understood why she was pardoned later on.
There is a saying in the law that "tough cases make bad law". Patty Hearst's case is indeed a very tough case because clearly the kidnapping was involuntary and no crimes would have been committed if she hadn't been kidnapped. At what point did her actions become voluntary? I think its difficult to find a clear line.
Van Houten's situation is simply different to me. No one made her join up with Manson. No one made her go into the La Bianca house. No one made her do the stabbing. Plus, she showed no contrition over her acts until she had spent years in prison.
I still am not saying she shouldn't be paroled after all these years. I am saying I could either way on it and I'm glad I do not have to make that decision.
No one made Patty Hearst walk into that bank either.
Let's not forget as well that the Manson Family name is a mistake; it was in reality the Manson Cult.
No one joined the Manson Family intending to commit mass murder or that they were joining a criminal cult. The Manson Family was just one of many California communes and Mason himself was well known to famous members of the entertainment community, especially musicians. Manson recorded song tracks at Brian Wilson's (the Beach Boys) home as he wanted to be a recording star; no one was planning that this '60s adventure was going to end in mass murder.
No one made Patty Hearst walk into that bank either.
Let's not forget as well that the Manson Family name is a mistake; it was in reality the Manson Cult.
No one joined the Manson Family intending to commit mass murder or that they were joining a criminal cult. The Manson Family was just one of many California communes and Mason himself was well known to famous members of the entertainment community, especially musicians. Manson recorded song tracks at Brian Wilson's (the Beach Boys) home as he wanted to be a recording star; no one was planning that this '60s adventure was going to end in mass murder.
I think the difference was that Patty Hearst was taken from her home and held captive under horrific physical and mental conditions designed to break her psychologically...LVH underwent no such torment...
Even her crime partner Tex Watson said Van Houten was scared to death in the LaBianca home but Manson ordered that everyone get their hands dirty. Van Houten, age 19, stabbed Rosemary LaBianca post-mortem after pretty much being forced down to the floor to do it by Watson.
It’s time for Van Houten to be released.
She did not stab Rosemary La Bianca "post mortem." (And Van Houten has changed her story about that, more than once.)
Van Houten and another woman held down Rosemary LaBianca as Charles “Tex” Watson stabbed Leno LaBianca. After Watson stabbed Rosemary LaBianca, he handed Van Houten a knife. She testified to stabbing the woman at least 14 more times.
"And I took one of the knives, and Patricia had one a knife, and we started stabbing and cutting up the lady," Van Houten testified in 1971. (Patricia Krenwinkle was a co-defendant and family member).
In chilling detail, Van Houten described the killing of Rosemary LaBianca, who offered anything to have her life spared.
"Charles Manson awoke Rosemary at gunpoint. He allowed her to put a dress on over her nightgown before he led her into the living room where Tex Watson already had Leno tied up. Charlie and Tex reassured the couple that they wouldn't be hurt, and were just being robbed. After collecting all the cash in the house Manson had Tex bring Rosemary back to her bedroom where he placed a pillowcase over her head and gagged her with a lamp cord. He told her to stay quiet and remain in the room, which she did. Tex returned to the living room and Charlie left. Within a few minutes Leslie Van Houten and Patricia Krenwinkel entered the residence and were instructed by Tex to go to Rosemary's bedroom. Leno started screaming as Tex began stabbing. Rosemary screamed from the bedroom, "what are you doing to my husband?" She began flailing around the room still blinded by the pillowcase on her head. The girls called Tex for help; Rosemary was swinging the lamp still attached to the chord used to gag her. Tex lunged forward and stabbed her until she fell to the floor. By the time the stabbing ended, Watson, Krenwinkel, and Van Houten had stabbed Rosemary 41 times."
She did not stab Rosemary La Bianca "post mortem." (And Van Houten has changed her story about that, more than once.)
Van Houten and another woman held down Rosemary LaBianca as Charles “Tex” Watson stabbed Leno LaBianca. After Watson stabbed Rosemary LaBianca, he handed Van Houten a knife. She testified to stabbing the woman at least 14 more times.
"And I took one of the knives, and Patricia had one a knife, and we started stabbing and cutting up the lady," Van Houten testified in 1971. (Patricia Krenwinkle was a co-defendant and family member).
In chilling detail, Van Houten described the killing of Rosemary LaBianca, who offered anything to have her life spared.
"Charles Manson awoke Rosemary at gunpoint. He allowed her to put a dress on over her nightgown before he led her into the living room where Tex Watson already had Leno tied up. Charlie and Tex reassured the couple that they wouldn't be hurt, and were just being robbed. After collecting all the cash in the house Manson had Tex bring Rosemary back to her bedroom where he placed a pillowcase over her head and gagged her with a lamp cord. He told her to stay quiet and remain in the room, which she did. Tex returned to the living room and Charlie left. Within a few minutes Leslie Van Houten and Patricia Krenwinkel entered the residence and were instructed by Tex to go to Rosemary's bedroom. Leno started screaming as Tex began stabbing. Rosemary screamed from the bedroom, "what are you doing to my husband?" She began flailing around the room still blinded by the pillowcase on her head. The girls called Tex for help; Rosemary was swinging the lamp still attached to the chord used to gag her. Tex lunged forward and stabbed her until she fell to the floor. By the time the stabbing ended, Watson, Krenwinkel, and Van Houten had stabbed Rosemary 41 times."
Thanks as usual for the info, CAL4NOW....
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