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What is strange is NRA gets put on trial but the school and cops that herded all the students into a locked room and left them there unguarded for the awaiting turkey shoot -- they get a medal
No cops herded anyone anywhere during Columbine. Most of the kids were killed in the library, where they were studying. A coach at the school, who was also killed, prevented more kids from being shot by getting as many out of the cafeteria as he could.
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Originally Posted by ogre
As most respondents have pointed out, these kinds of incidents are nothing new.... if it had not been Columbine they looked back to as the big one they wanted to emulate, it would be another mass killing. So I'd have to guess that this would still be happening if Columbine had never occurred.
Sadly, you're right. Harris and Klebold apparently studied Timothy McVeigh's bombing in Oklahoma City in 1995.
You have to wonder if they never released the names of these murderers... they would not get their sick "celebrity" status. Would it make them less common?
I have been saying for years that the media is the biggest cause of this happening over and over. That is because the nut job will be guaranteed immortality and fame, no one will remember the victims, but everyone will know the killers name. Anytime there is a event such as the boston bombing, or a school shooting, the police should just say the shooter is dead, never release a name or photo, remove all traces of the scrum and feed it all thru a wood chipper. No fame, no incentive.
It is not really true that everyone remembers the shooter's names. 99% of them will be forgotten. I can't even remember the name of the shooter at the Navy Yard, and he killed 12 people. Most of these shooters get attention for a week, and that is it. If this was about fame, they would start targeting preschools and maternity wards, places where they would be guaranteed even more media coverage than shooting up a HS.
It is not even a guarantee that people will remember the incidents either. There are shootings where 10+ people were killed and are never talked about anymore.
I have been saying for years that the media is the biggest cause of this happening over and over. That is because the nut job will be guaranteed immortality and fame, no one will remember the victims, but everyone will know the killers name. Anytime there is a event such as the boston bombing, or a school shooting, the police should just say the shooter is dead, never release a name or photo, remove all traces of the scrum and feed it all thru a wood chipper. No fame, no incentive.
Yes, exactly. Or if the media pilloried them as losers instead of treating them as fascinating -- that might be an active deterrent to the next guy who resents his entire workplace or school.
It's hard to put a lot of blame on "the media," since tabloid-style media outlets exist all over the place, including countries like Spain and Italy which do not have school-shootings. We'd have to look at each factor and see whether or not it also exists in countries without such violence.
No cops herded anyone anywhere during Columbine. Most of the kids were killed in the library, where they were studying. A coach at the school, who was also killed, prevented more kids from being shot by getting as many out of the cafeteria as he could.
Sadly, you're right. Harris and Klebold apparently studied Timothy McVeigh's bombing in Oklahoma City in 1995.
I disagree with most of what you say so far as specifics while I may still agree with you on intent some. Meaning, I'm not saying "you're totally wrong" here.. Yes, the facts are that most of the kids were killed in the library, however, the cops DID 'herd' the kids, but (generally) to safety. There was a fair amount of confusion on the part of the cops (somewhat understandable) and at least one person.. Let me look this up, because my memory sucks.. Ah.. Teacher Dave Sanders.. Students had him in a room, sign in the window that said "1 bleeding to death" and the police prevented paramedics from going to his aid for hours. His family filed a suit against the police which was settled for 1.5 million. And the cops were a little rough with the evacuating students, because they didn't know if the shooters were running out WITH the students.
I do totally disagree with your statement that they were studying McVeigh. Outside of trying to maximize death and using homemade explosives.. What do the two have in common at all? Klebold and Harris built several IEDs that, for the most part, were total failures and were designed to simply create confusion and fear.. Not death. And they were built, mostly, from propane tanks. McVeigh's single explosive was an ammonium nitrate bomb that was designed to kill and destroy the building.
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Originally Posted by gardener34
You have to wonder if they never released the names of these murderers... they would not get their sick "celebrity" status. Would it make them less common?
The media has SOME blame here, but.. I equate it with the Twinkie defense.. Or blaming the tobacco companies because someone started (and kept) smoking... It boils down to.. Blame the PEOPLE who commit the atrocities.
Meaning, I'm not saying "you're totally wrong" here.. Yes, the facts are that most of the kids were killed in the library, however, the cops DID 'herd' the kids, but (generally) to safety.
You took my post out of context. Re-read the post I was responding to: "the cops herded all the students into a locked room and left them there unguarded," which was false.
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I do totally disagree with your statement that they were studying McVeigh. Outside of trying to maximize death and using homemade explosives.. What do the two have in common at all?
"Eric and Dylan had been considering a killing spree for at least a year and a half. They had settled on the approximate time and location a year out: April, in the commons. They finalized details as Judgment Day approached: Monday, April 19. The date appeared firm. The boys referred to it twice matter-of-factly in the recordings they made in the last ten days. They did not explain the choice, though Eric discussed topping Oklahoma City..." -Columbine by Dave Cullen.
*(Later, when they couldn't obtain enough ammunition in time, they delaed it a day.)
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The media has SOME blame here, but.. I equate it with the Twinkie defense.. Or blaming the tobacco companies because someone started (and kept) smoking... It boils down to.. Blame the PEOPLE who commit the atrocities.
This thread is about what the murder rate might be if Columbine hadn't happened, not about who or what was to blame for Columbine.
Even 15 years later, you still hear about people copycatting Columbine on a semi regular basis, like the recent shootings in Vegas and Seattle and the attempted one in Minnesota. Not only that, you never hear about people copycatting Virginia Tech, or Isla Vista, or (thank God) Sandy Hook. I think it's safe to assume that pretty much every single mass shooting/attempted mass shooting in the past 15 years was inspired by Columbine. At this point, those boys probably have had more followers than Jim Jones. Would it happen as much, or at all, if that first act had never occurred? Did Charles Whitman or the "going postal" phenomenon ever kick off a wave of copycats like this? Has there EVER been a crime of any kind with far reaching repercussions like this one?
If all gang-style murders/shootings could be quelled, America's gun violence would be on par with other countries.
The gang phenomenon is influenced by cultural rot, promoted by media of all sorts and glorified by many.
Our focus is in the wrong place.
Afterthought:
Not that school shootings aren't their own and separate cause for concern. But speaking strictly in numbers and amount of human damage they are dwarfed by gang violence.
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