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Sorry to hear what they did to you. I definately know how you feel. A family member of mine just went through the same thing. She had almost 9 years of great annual reviews; in that time, her pay increased by 40%. All her coworkers, managers liked her. Last year, new management was hired and things haven't been the same for her. She wasn't expecting special treatment but she expected to be treated equally.
Any mistakes her coworkers did, it was acceptable, not even a verbal warning. She makes similar mistakes, she gets a write up. She didn't do some paperwork the way the new manager wanted, she got written up. Her coworkers did the same thing, not even a singe verbal warning. Every time she got written up, she would ask her coworkers if they got written up for doing the same thing and they all said "NO". They tell her they didn't even get a verbal warning. In less than a year after that new manager was hired, she was fired.
Unfortunately, non of her coworkers were willing to risk their job to testify on her behalf stating that the new management was treating her unfairly. Honestly, who in their right mind would go against the hand that his feeding their family.
She was denied unemployment benefit and she had to appeal. Instead of depending on her former coworkers' testimony, she spent a few days putting all her thoughts together in writing. Prepared a well thought out speech and presented her testimony to the judge when she showed up to her appeal date. The judge didn't care about all the past events that lead to the firing. He was only concern about the final action that lead to the firing. By putting all her thoughts on paper, she believed it helped her case. Of course, her former employer not showing up help too.
Don't say things that will hurt you. It is not your job to shoot yourself down. Don't lie either. You want to shift as much blame to them, letting the judge know you were treated completely unfair by your former employer. That your firing was unjustifiable.
Now, she is waiting to see if her former employer will appeal her case. If not, she will get her benefit. She wanted to sue her former employer for discriminating and selectively picking on her and not treating her like the rest of her coworkers but I told her that CA is an at-will state and it might not do her any good.
Another thing...NEVER GIVE UP. She told me that she has nothing to lose and she will go all the way to the bitter end if she have to. If it doesn't go your way, keep appealling until they tell you, you can't appeal anymore.
In the future Monique, to avoid this kind of problem all you have to do is be at your desk ready to work when you are supposed to. It's not rocket science, really. In fact, many many people arrive at their work station 10 or even 15 minutes early to prepare for the day and then begin to work promptly at the appointed hour.
As a business owner, I expect people to be on time. You were counseled REPEATEDLY about this and still refused to cooperate. This indicates to me that you did not feel that being punctual was important and it also indicates to me that you probably felt the same way about other matters concerning your job.
I suggest that you work on finding another job, and this time, be punctual.
In the future Monique, to avoid this kind of problem all you have to do is be at your desk ready to work when you are supposed to. It's not rocket science, really. In fact, many many people arrive at their work station 10 or even 15 minutes early to prepare for the day and then begin to work promptly at the appointed hour.
As a business owner, I expect people to be on time. You were counseled REPEATEDLY about this and still refused to cooperate. This indicates to me that you did not feel that being punctual was important and it also indicates to me that you probably felt the same way about other matters concerning your job.
I suggest that you work on finding another job, and this time, be punctual.
20yrsinBranson
Thank you SO MUCH for this! I think this would be relevant though, if I was fired for being tardy or anything that had to do with tardiness. But thank you all the same, I appreciate your input.
Branson brings up a good point Monique. When you go to the hearing, make it clear that your watch was not accurate or your route to work was riddled with unpredictable delays so it was harder for you to get to work ontime. It might sound lame, but its better than just saying.........well everyone else was doing it.........
However, the main point I brought up earlier is the truth. They fired you because of your profanity. They cant do that. You will explain you were frustrated blah blah.......and the law states a one time incident is not grounds for termination to deny benefits.
If they do try to introduce the fall back position of the tardiness, stress the point you had a flat and called before your shift occurred. They cant fire you for that either. The actual event that gets you fired MUST be justified and in your case neither are.
Sorry to hear what they did to you. I definately know how you feel. A family member of mine just went through the same thing. She had almost 9 years of great annual reviews; in that time, her pay increased by 40%. All her coworkers, managers liked her. Last year, new management was hired and things haven't been the same for her. She wasn't expecting special treatment but she expected to be treated equally.
Any mistakes her coworkers did, it was acceptable, not even a verbal warning. She makes similar mistakes, she gets a write up. She didn't do some paperwork the way the new manager wanted, she got written up. Her coworkers did the same thing, not even a singe verbal warning. Every time she got written up, she would ask her coworkers if they got written up for doing the same thing and they all said "NO". They tell her they didn't even get a verbal warning. In less than a year after that new manager was hired, she was fired.
Unfortunately, non of her coworkers were willing to risk their job to testify on her behalf stating that the new management was treating her unfairly. Honestly, who in their right mind would go against the hand that his feeding their family.
She was denied unemployment benefit and she had to appeal. Instead of depending on her former coworkers' testimony, she spent a few days putting all her thoughts together in writing. Prepared a well thought out speech and presented her testimony to the judge when she showed up to her appeal date. The judge didn't care about all the past events that lead to the firing. He was only concern about the final action that lead to the firing. By putting all her thoughts on paper, she believed it helped her case. Of course, her former employer not showing up help too.
Don't say things that will hurt you. It is not your job to shoot yourself down. Don't lie either. You want to shift as much blame to them, letting the judge know you were treated completely unfair by your former employer. That your firing was unjustifiable.
Now, she is waiting to see if her former employer will appeal her case. If not, she will get her benefit. She wanted to sue her former employer for discriminating and selectively picking on her and not treating her like the rest of her coworkers but I told her that CA is an at-will state and it might not do her any good.
Another thing...NEVER GIVE UP. She told me that she has nothing to lose and she will go all the way to the bitter end if she have to. If it doesn't go your way, keep appealling until they tell you, you can't appeal anymore.
Huh.. that sounds very similar to my situation. I don't have one single negative mark on my record either.. and I worked there five years. There were weeks I was clocking 60 hours because we were so understaffed and backed up, and I'd never file for overtime.
I am going to write a statement too, thank you. I do feel it will help my case... I feel like if they had fired me for anything else.. Something that I knew I did wrong, like the tardiness.. I would be okay. I wouldn't fight it, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But to fire me for something like swearing, when the entire office is swearing... How could that not be personal?..
I'm hoping I get a job soon, and I don't even need to do this. I've been on 2 job interviews this week, and 1 last week, and another 2 the week before. I really am trying here.. In the interim though.. I have to see this through. I do.. Five years of tireless service, and then this. They never complained about the few minutes of tardiness when he wasn't angry.. It was common knowledge around the office that I worked the longest hours of anyone there.. I didn't ask for accolades for this..I didn't care. But to make me out to be this lazy, foul mouthed person.. Its hurtful.
1. I'm hoping to prove that I couldn't possibly have said those things to Doug because he was standing right behind me the whole time. He did not turn to go to HR until I had refused to hand him the timesheet on demand. I can't imagine that I would say those things to him, and he'd still stand there listening... Does that make sense?
2. When I was called into HR that day, if the issue had been my language, WHY were we even talking about time sheets then? I mean, wouldn't that be the only thing they would be going on about? Why were we talking about the fact that I had refused to give Doug the timesheets?
3. I don't know if this is even relevant or not, but.. my office is pretty lax. People talk loud, people laugh.. basically, swearing was not uncommon. It was not the first time anyone had heard me use that word, and I most definitely was not the only person who ever used it. We all swore at some point or the other, truthfully. Yes, I was angry, but I only said that because I thought I could.. if that makes sense in a twisted way. I was trying to express my anger, but that's it. If swearing had been a big no/no at the office, I can't imagine that I would out of the blue, just swear. When Lisa yelled "Language!", she told me after that it was because I yelled it, and there was an intern sitting in the cube next to me. The point here is that it wasn't unprecedented. It wasn't unual, actually.
4.If I had said those things to Doug, wouldn't it be an open and shut thing? Why would they suspend me? And I doubt Lisa would have said anything like "I can't believe he went down the hall", or "Don't be silly, you won't be fired for that", or even the text at home in caps saying I wasn't fired.
First of all, I find it disturbing in your post that you first admit you cursed at Doug, even admit another person heard it and said "language" ... and then later on in your post swear you NEVER cursed at Doug.
1. You did curse at Doug and someone else, Lisa, heard you do it. So you will have to lie that you did not utter a single curse word and hope you are believed at the appeal.
2. The person in HR did talk to you about the profane language as per your account above.
3. Unfortunately, jobs can choose to punish one person and not punish another for the same type of rule breaking. It happens all the time.
4. Initially you were suspended but they are allowed to change the suspension into a termination at any time. This is "at-will employment." They can fire you for anything or nothing at all, with the exception of firing you in a discriminatory manner (which means being fired on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, national origin, disability, genetic information, or age). The defense "I'm appealing this on the grounds that I was terminated because Doug has something against me, or doesn't like me, or something" just doesn't mean anything when it comes to at-will employment.
Below is the issue at the hearing and the only issue. You were discharged for inappropriate behavior in the workplace. Profanity towards your boss, which is also a form of insubordination since it was your boss and not another coworker. A supervisor does not have to deal with insubordinate behavior from any worker below them and it is a typical reason people get fired. That is the issue you have to address. Nothing else.
Quote:
The letter reads:
"You were discharged for inappropriate behavior in the workplace.
The issue is whether you were discharged for disqualifying reasons under section 28-44-18 of the Rhode Island Employment Security Act.
Your discharge is considered to be for disqualifying reasons since your actions were not in your employer's best interests. Benefits are denied"
So if you go to this hearing, just steadfastly deny ever cursing at Doug and convince the hearing officer to believe you instead of them. That is your best hope in this case. Best of luck to you!
Writing a statement will NOT help you. Please get that idea out of your head. It's your testimony or lack thereof at your hearing that is going to help you. This is a discharge case, and you have no duty under the UI rules to prove or justify anything. You have no idea how the system works. So stop thinking you know best. Seriously, how many times have you lost your job for being discharged and collected UI? As with most claimants on here, the answer is probably that this is your first time. Take the advice you are being given. All this talking and statements you want to make are only hurting you because every time you reply to a post, it sounds like an admission of guilt.
The way I see it is your story is like this:
You worked under Charles. You performed successfully for 5 years (or there abouts.) Charles left and under the new manager nothing you did could please him. Things that were OK under Charles but were unacceptable to the new guy. You were not given enough time to learn the new rules and expectations.
Now, to improve your chances, it's best for you not to say it as testimony, but try to elicit the correct reponses from your employer because when the employer says it for you, it's presumed to be true where as when you say, it sounds like you'd say anything to get your UI check.
Q: Prior to working for "new boss," who did I report to?
Q: Were there any performance or discipline problems when I was working for Charles?
Q: How long have I been working for "new boss"?
If the tardiness becomes an issue, which I don't think it will, you can use questions like this:
Q: After you advised me of my tardiness problem, why did you change my schedule from 9:30 am to 9:00am?
Q: Do you think that someone that had trouble coming in at 9:30 would improve by making them come in earlier?
As to the swearing
Q: Did you ever give me a warning or any other employee for that matter regarding language in the office?
You want to show that your troubles all began with the new managers, that your tardiness was exacerbated by the employer changes, and that the swearing was a one-time isolated incident, and was not uniformly enforced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monique78
I am going to write a statement too, thank you. I do feel it will help my case... I feel like if they had fired me for anything else.. Something that I knew I did wrong, like the tardiness.. I would be okay. I wouldn't fight it, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But to fire me for something like swearing, when the entire office is swearing... How could that not be personal?..
The actual event they fired you for was inappropriate.
At will employment. Google it.
Supreme court has ruled that regardless of how many warnings you get, the actual event leading to termination must be justified.
Would love to read that ruling. HOWEVER, the termination was for profanity, which was ADMITTEDLY used by the OP...so, at will employment and justified.
You were late but told your supervisor about it before hand . The 'profane language' was a separate incident that was a one time event even if you were in the wrong. They cannot fire you for that either.
Wanna bet?
You have an excellent case to win your benefits. The employer is going to hang themselves by admitting the whole incident. They think its the 'final straw the broke the camels back' but it doesnt work that way.
You lost your job due to no fault of your own. Your employer fired you out of anger.
OP will have to prove to the appeals people that the profane language was a NORMAl thing at the office and that there was no issue as it was never an issue before. Trying to argue that the termination was not justified is stupid.
Do you have a friend that works there that would testify that many people have sworn at work and received no discipline?
If so, that would make your case.
However, you still need to appeal because:
The employer might not show up and that pretty much means you'll get UI if you stop elaborating to the point you look guilty.
The employer might send the HR rep that has zero first-hand knowledge of what you said that day and again so long as you stop saying stuff to look guilty.
And even if the people that heard you say it show up, you still might be able to get across the point that other people have sworn and received no discipline, that you've never been warned about your language in the past, or it was an excited utterance subject to the isolated incidence rule, all of which will get you your UI benefits.
Excited utterance is likely your best argument. HOWEVER, if you can get someone else to testify and they will say that swearing was common, well you may have a better shot of the "I did it before...and so didd he...and noone said anything" defense.
Also, I would mention the heck out of Doug (I htink that was the name you gave him) constantly stating that Charles was no longer there....tell them that if the rules had changed when Doug took over, you had no way of knowing as all you were ever told was that CHarles was no longer there but people were TSILL not disciplined for the things similar to what you said. The company MAY try to say you had issues with the new boss...show that your work habits did not change.
Also, if they bring up the tardiness, you CAN win by showing that you were improving. Although that does not seem to be the issue.
Thank you SO MUCH for this! I think this would be relevant though, if I was fired for being tardy or anything that had to do with tardiness. But thank you all the same, I appreciate your input.
Monique. I have the case law where they upheld a decision to give benefits over an argument an employee had with a supervisor as an isolated 'outburst' was not considered just cause to deny someone benefits. There would have to be a pattern of abuse to your supervisors established.
Its not RI but its Connecticut and the law was taken from supreme court so its going to be applied to all 50 states.
Scroll down to #6 and you will see that what I have stated here is absolutely the fact.
However, in your case they are claiming they 'talked' to you about swearing before. But the previous swearing had nothing to do with a heated exchange with supervisors. It was just 'trash talk' amongst co workers from what you stated.
Ergo, the incident of insubordination to your employer WAS an isolated outburst and you WILL win your benefits.
If they have that as the reason to discharge, then you have lost your job due to no fault of your own.
Consult with an attorney , and verify what I have told you.
Let us know how it goes
Last edited by thomasdavie; 12-22-2012 at 07:17 PM..
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