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I read the forum rules prior, as well as, a thread requesting all new posters to read it before posting a first post.
I've spent a bit of time reading the forum, however, because all employment cases are 'unique', I hope I can start a thread asking about some specifics regarding my own case.
With 14 years in the U.S. military, I had collected twice in my life--after 2 deployments I did overseas.
Those cases were cut-and-dry, and I was able to collect without any problem.
Here was the time-frame of my recent departure:
*18AUG2014 -- Began my first day of work, as a salaried production supervisor, with 40+ direct report employees.
*07NOV2014 -- Submitted my letter of resignation.
*05JAN2015 -- This was the date I gave my employer, in my resignation letter, as what I had hoped to be my final date.
*20NOV2014 -- Despite greeting my performance with accolades, they said they would be "accepting my resignation early"....effectively executing their side of the employment-at-will.
I know this was an unusually high amount of 'notice' to give my employer--8+ weeks--but I honestly thought I was doing them a favor...I also offered to train any new supervisor they brought aboard.
...I have heard/read that 'voluntary quit' cases can be very challenging to win, as there appears to be a substantial burden of proof on a claimant to prove that they had a "necessary" and "compelling" reason(s) to quit/resign, as well as, having to demonstrate that they attempted to work with their employer to "preserve" the relationship.
....now, I did go ahead and submit my initial claim, through the PA UC website.
Because each case is different/unique, could I cut/paste what I wrote there, for review here?
I would be very interested to get opinions on my case--do I stand a chance?--and, possible expectations moving forward.
In some states, when an employer accepts a resignation early they just converted a "quit" into a "discharge," and you're relieved of any burden of proof. This is the first path you go down before you try to make this into a good cause quit.
Next time, don't go submitting your UI claim until you get help with difficult issues such as this. I can picture you saying you quit, go into way too much detail why, and making the "accepted resignation early" nothing but a footnote to the whole thing that will be completely overlooked by anyone reading it.
Spend your time finding out how PA handles this. There are three schools of thought: Accepting a resignation early makes you fully eligible for UI because it's a discharge. Accepting a resignation early makes the claimant eligible from the date of discharge through the date the claimant would have quit anyway. A quit is a quit, and it doesn't matter that the employer accepted it early. Then as an add on, if the employer pays through the date of resignation and there is no loss, the employee experienced no adverse treatment, and it's a quit.
Also, since they let you go in Nov, why are you only now asking 5 weeks after the fact? I would have expected someone in your shoes to be here on Nov 21.
In some states, when an employer accepts a resignation early they just converted a "quit" into a "discharge," and you're relieved of any burden of proof. This is the first path you go down before you try to make this into a good cause quit.
Next time, don't go submitting your UI claim until you get help with difficult issues such as this. I can picture you saying you quit, go into way too much detail why, and making the "accepted resignation early" nothing but a footnote to the whole thing that will be completely overlooked by anyone reading it.
Spend your time finding out how PA handles this. There are three schools of thought: Accepting a resignation early makes you fully eligible for UI because it's a discharge. Accepting a resignation early makes the claimant eligible from the date of discharge through the date the claimant would have quit anyway. A quit is a quit, and it doesn't matter that the employer accepted it early. Then as an add on, if the employer pays through the date of resignation and there is no loss, the employee experienced no adverse treatment, and it's a quit.
Also, since they let you go in Nov, why are you only now asking 5 weeks after the fact? I would have expected someone in your shoes to be here on Nov 21.
I really appreciate your response, Chyvan.
Interestingly enough, in my initial claim, I did highlight the fact that my employer said they would be "accepting my resignation" fairly early in my narrative for 'why' I resigned.
...after I had initially filed my claim, I had actually sent a letter, via snail mail, requesting that it be closed/withdrawn....namely because--at least this was my understanding at the time--that I wouldn't be entitled, or that it would be an extremely painful uphill fight--simply because I was a "voluntary quit".
After doing more research, and calling PA UC, I did decide to "reopen" the claim.
I know this is long, but HERE is what I wrote (I saved it for my own records, before submitting it...)
In your experience, would this be a fairly solid "case" delineating a "necessary" and "compelling" reason to resign?
"In late August 2014, I was hired to fill the position of Production Supervisor, at XXXXX XXXX, PA facility. This hiring came on the tails of years of turmoil, unrest, and mismanagement, which led to the systematic terminations/replacement of various upper managers and unionizing efforts by employees (currently in litigation).
Due to a combination of factors ranging from heightened production work requirements, to management differences/lack of supervisory support/inexistent and/or lack of fundamental supervisoral tools and resources, I submitted my letter of resignation on 07NOV2014...with my final work date specified as 05JAN2015.
Despite my declaring that 05JAN2015 would be my final day on my resignation letter, my employer said that they would be "accepting my resignation" early. Though my boss did greet my performance with accolades, my release also came after a very odd team meeting, with my boss and my team, and an explosion of team member complaints related to unclear policy and different application of policy across all 3 shifts.
In December, I had filed an initial claim for UC, however, on 24DEC, I mailed a letter requesting the claim be closed/withdrawn, namely because I felt my "voluntary quit" situation would make it a very difficult uphill battle for benefits....however, I do believe I have a very strong case.
(IN ORDER TO LEAVE IN GOOD STANDING, WHILE SECURING LETTERS OF REFERENCE, MY RESIGNATION LETTER WAS DETAILED, HOWEVER IT INTENTIONALLY DID NOT MENTION MANY OTHER ISSUES. TO REFERENCE THEM, ESPECIALLY IN A RESIGNATION LETTER, I FELT WOULD JEOPARDIZE MY DEPARTING IN GOOD STANDING. IT CITED MORE PERSONAL REASONS FOR RESIGNING BEING RELATED TO INCREASED JOB COMMITMENT REQUIREMENTS, COMMUTE, family, etc.
MY NOT MENTIONING THE FOLLOWING THINGS, in my resignation letter, DOES NOT MEAN THEY DIDN'T EXIST.)
LIKEWISE, THESE FACTORS ALSO MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR A SUPERVISOR'S OWN PERFORMANCE TO BE FAIRLY ASSESSED.
#1.) INEXISTENCE OF A VIABLE ATTENDANCE POLICY -- WITH MY HAVING OVER 40 direct report employees reporting to me, an intolerable work environment ensued because I didn't have fundamental tools/resources/policies to hold my team accountable and to effectively discipline them.
This caused an enormous amount of frustration on my part, and my frustration was recognized, on many occasions, by my boss.
UPON MY HIRING, I WAS GIVEN A HANDBOOK WITH VAGUE VERBIAGE, THAT ESSENTIALLY LEFT ATTENDANCE UP TO A "SUPERVISOR'S DISCRETION".
IT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS HANDBOOK WAS "GOING TO BE UPDATED" AND THAT A VIABLE ATTENDANCE POLICY WOULD BE RELEASED. (By "viable", I mean a policy that clearly articulates consequences, in the form of quantifiable points/occurrences, that are tracked by supervisors. This did not exist, that I am aware of....)
ON OVER 10 OCCASIONS, I BROUGHT UP THE NEED FOR A VIABLE ATTENDANCE POLICY TO VARIOUS MEMBERS OF UPPER MANAGEMENT, TO INCLUDE MY BOSS, ETC...AS WELL AS MY PEERS.
....AS A RESULT OF THE INEXISTENCE OF THIS POLICY--AND, NO EVIDENCE (THAT I COULD SEE) THAT IT WAS EVEN BEING CREATED--THERE WAS A HUGE DEVIATION BETWEEN HOW SUPERVISORS MANAGED THEIR RESPECTIVE SHIFTS. I am sure that my team members would testify to how many members from 3rd shift would consistently arrive late, or in the incorrect uniform...and, judging by the continual occurrence, it at least appeared like there was rarely any consequence.
Maintaining good order and discipline was literally impossible, and my team members consistently complained about how they would see other shift team members violating what little policy there was and, at least it appeared, rarely realize consequences.
WITH 14 YEARS IN THE U.S. ARMY, ALONG WITH 5 YEARS AS AN OFFICER, I WAS DELIBERATELY BROUGHT ABOARD TO PROVIDE DISCIPLINE AND ACCOUNTABILITY. UNFORTUNATELY, THIS LED TO A WORK ENVIRONMENT THAT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO TOLERATE, DUE TO THE HUGE DEVIATION BETWEEN EMPLOYEE DISCIPLINE AND ACCOUNTABILITY ACROSS ALL 3 SHIFTS.
WHILE MY TEAM MEMBERS RESPECTED ME, THEY CONSTANTLY BROUGHT UP THE FACT THAT I WAS ENFORCING THE MAKE-SHIFT, FROM THE HIP, POLICIES THAT WERE CREATED....AND, OTHER SHIFT SUPERVISORS ALLOWED EMPLOYEES TO GET AWAY WITH THINGS/NOT HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE.
THIS CREATED A MANAGERIAL NIGHTMARE, WAY BEYOND WHAT I WAS EXPECTING or what I would expect upon my hiring.
Throughout my tenure with XXXX, my manager personally validated, through his own statements, not only the void of these policies and tools, but also how he believed his supervisors needed them in order to operate effectively. One validated the other. Not only were these not produced, but I was unable to personally validate that there was even an attempt being made to produce them. As a front line leader/supervisor, with 42 direct reports, at no time was I even offered an opportunity to give a say (assuming these policies were even being worked on) into what the contents of the policies were.
#2.) UNION IN LITIGATION, AND ENSUING WORK ENVIRONMENT -- WHILE I WAS AWARE OF A PAST EFFORT OF EMPLOYEES TO UNIONIZE, WHICH IS CURRENTLY IN LITIGATION, I DO FEEL STRONGLY THAT I WAS BROUGHT ABOARD AS A BIT OF A SCAPE GOAT--AS AN "OUTSIDER"/NEW PERSON, WHO COULD ENFORCE POLICY, WHERE OTHERS WOULDN'T OR COULDN'T. EMPLOYEE SENTIMENT HAD ALREADY BEEN ERODED TOWARDS MANAGEMENT, BUT I HAD NO IDEA THAT THERE WAS NEXT-TO-NO CREDIBILITY REMAINING FROM EMPLOYEES, TOWARDS UPPER MANAGEMENT.
My team members can likely attest to the lack of trust they had/have in supervisors and upper management that were there long before I was even hired.
AS A SUPERVISOR, THIS LEFT ME IN A SITUATION WHERE, AT LEAST IT APPEARED, LIKE I WAS THE ONLY ONE ENFORCING POLICY AND OTHERS, FOR WHATEVER REASON, WEREN'T.
I HAD ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA THAT THINGS WERE AS BAD AS THEY WERE.
#3.) HEIGHTENED UNEXPECTED PRODUCTION DEMANDS/REQUIREMENTS
A CULMINATION OF INTERRELATED FACTORS MADE IT A SHEER IMPOSSIBILITY FOR A SUPERVISOR—THE FRONT-LINE LEADER OF ALL PRODUCTION FLOOR EMPLOYEES ON THEIR SHIFT—TO FAIRLY AND CONSISTENTLY EXECUTE THEIR DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES IN ACCORDANCE WITH THEIR JOB DESCRIPTION.
THOUGH I WAS MADE AWARE OF SOME CHALLENGES THE COMPANY FACED UPON MY HIRING, EVEN THE MOST REASONABLE OF PERSON, UNDER REASONABLE CIRCUMSTANCES, WOULDN’T HAVE EXPECTED THE SITUATION THAT I WALKED INTO....BEFORE ACCEPTING THEIR EMPLOYMENT OFFER, I HAD INTERVIEWED WELL, PREPARED QUESTIONS THAT A REASONABLE CANDIDATE WOULD PREPARE, AND DID AS MUCH DUE DILIGENCE, ON THE COMPANY, AS I COULD.
...also, my employer didn't pay until the date I had specified as my resignation (05JAN2015), in my resignation letter.
There was no exit interview offered, and when I spoke to HR later, they said they aren't obligated/required to provide one.
I spoke to them later because they had actually (accidentally) maintained me on the payroll, and actually continued to pay me--I received an additional check, for 2 weeks, that they then said they would be going into my account to take the pay back (and, they did) because I was accidentally paid due to their own oversight.
....without an exit interview, or any explanation of anything, I did consider it a possibility that they were just maintaining me on the payroll until the date of my resignation. I know it would seem odd to continue to pay an individual, especially when they aren't actually showing up to work and working, but the whole situation really confused me.
The reason they'd keep you on payroll is because sometimes it's cheaper to pay through the date of a quit rather than getting stuck with a 26 week UI claim that could have been complelely avoided.
The problem with what you wrote is that it's WAY too long. I couldn't read it all, and that means that no one else in the UI department will either. It's too easy to deny and let someone else deal with your appeal.
The "accepted resignation early" is the best way to go when you just don't know if your state allows it or not.
The other thing is that you said you didn't say in your letter of resignation all the reason why you were quitting because you wanted a good reference. That's a rookie move too. When you quit, you spell it out when you want UI, and you write your letter of resignation for the UI people because in all probablity, they'll be getting it from the employer. The reason the letter of resignation is important is because it says why you quit when you did.
You can't expect to get UI when you say, "my life is going in a different direction and my last day will be . . ." No one is going to believe that you'd write a letter like that when you quit because it was a "quit or resign" situation, or your pay was cut, or the job you were hired to do was not in line with the duties you were performing.
To help you if you have to go the "good cause" route, think CHANGES. If you were hired as a supervisor, and they wanted you to clean toilets is the extreme example. You were hired on the day shift, and they switched you to 3rd. Your work location was 5 miles from your house, and they moved the work location 70 miles away. Those are the things that get people UI the easiest. Also, employers think they have a god-given right to make changes (they do), but then they admit that they made the changes and that helps with the burden of proof. Admissions count. Yes, your employer can make changes, but there is ALWAYS a contract of hire even when verbal. You do this for us, we'll do this for you, and when they change it, they broke a deal. In essence, they fired you from the job you HAD, and then offered you a NEW one, that you didn't want, and most claimant see this as a quit than a discharge/refusal of work which is more accurately characterized.
Now that you know this, you can work on your story to shorten it up, and focus on the stuff that's easy to prove, and carries a lot of weight.
The reason they'd keep you on payroll is because sometimes it's cheaper to pay through the date of a quit rather than getting stuck with a 26 week UI claim that could have been complelely avoided.
The problem with what you wrote is that it's WAY too long. I couldn't read it all, and that means that no one else in the UI department will either. It's too easy to deny and let someone else deal with your appeal.
The "accepted resignation early" is the best way to go when you just don't know if your state allows it or not.
The other thing is that you said you didn't say in your letter of resignation all the reason why you were quitting because you wanted a good reference. That's a rookie move too. When you quit, you spell it out when you want UI, and you write your letter of resignation for the UI people because in all probablity, they'll be getting it from the employer. The reason the letter of resignation is important is because it says why you quit when you did.
You can't expect to get UI when you say, "my life is going in a different direction and my last day will be . . ." No one is going to believe that you'd write a letter like that when you quit because it was a "quit or resign" situation, or your pay was cut, or the job you were hired to do was not in line with the duties you were performing.
To help you if you have to go the "good cause" route, think CHANGES. If you were hired as a supervisor, and they wanted you to clean toilets is the extreme example. You were hired on the day shift, and they switched you to 3rd. Your work location was 5 miles from your house, and they moved the work location 70 miles away. Those are the things that get people UI the easiest. Also, employers think they have a god-given right to make changes (they do), but then they admit that they made the changes and that helps with the burden of proof. Admissions count. Yes, your employer can make changes, but there is ALWAYS a contract of hire even when verbal. You do this for us, we'll do this for you, and when they change it, they broke a deal. In essence, they fired you from the job you HAD, and then offered you a NEW one, that you didn't want, and most claimant see this as a quit than a discharge/refusal of work which is more accurately characterized.
Now that you know this, you can work on your story to shorten it up, and focus on the stuff that's easy to prove, and carries a lot of weight.
I appreciate your response here again. It was very helpful.
I know the narrative was extremely long, but with all the legalese about witholding facts I was a bit afraid NOT to mention something.
It seems like this particular case could swing either way.
The truth is, when they ask my employer for my letter of resignation, they won't see any of the items I mentioned.
Noted about the Rookie mistakes.
...throughout this process, I've reverted to my military team-player mindset, and every moved I've made has been to make things easier for my employer--offering to train an incoming supervisor, offering a substantial notice, etc....
....it looks like I may not have looked out for my own best interest though.
I can't seem to find anything online about how PA actually actually treats those "employer accepted resignation early" cases.
Has anyone here experienced that, in PA, or know of someone who experienced that?
Hopefully, Rabrrita sees this post. She seems to know these finer details. I know my state and what a handful of others do for "early acceptance," but it's sometimes really hard to find.
Would it cause my most recent employer's taxes to increase, or the employer before that?
The employer(s) in the base period eat the cost
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhj2014
If they are looking to the employer BEFORE my departing employer, why would my departing employer even bother to appeal/fight my claim?
Sometimes they don't have to but it is their right if they do. You have to understand that claimants quite often kill their own chances at UI. When you say "quit," your employer can sit back and do nothing and only about 12% of claimants will get benefits. Those are pretty good odds for the apathetic employer.
...I do know that PA is an "employment-at-will" state, so I don't know how exactly that plays into the "accepting my resignation early" scenario.
My gut is telling me that, with their VERY experienced HR manager, they knew the game quite well when they decided to "accept my resignation early".
I wish I knew what level my letter of resignation would play in all of this.
As mentioned in my narrative, I didn't mention the underlying reasons simply because I didn't want to sever possibility of references, etc.
....based on everything I've read, it would seem like this case, in PA, will probably be denied...with a possibility to win on appeal(s).
Now, if this did go before a referee, would I be able to get subpoenas to have witnesses appear, on my behalf?
Would ANYONE be fair game? (Could I have my former employees subpoenad? my boss? etc...)
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