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Why don't you get your finger out and prove some of the things you feel entitled to have others do for you?
Quite simply because I am not the one always asking for proof. Fantasy is fine with me. I am happy with my beliefs whether you think they are strange/real or not.
It is your problem, not mine if you want proof for things which are, at the moment, unprovable. Insults are in your head only. I have told you that. Why do you think that anyone else can make you feel any emotion, they are all a product of your own mind.
Quite simply because I am not the one always asking for proof. Fantasy is fine with me. I am happy with my beliefs whether you think they are strange/real or not.
It is your problem, not mine if you want proof for things which are, at the moment, unprovable. Insults are in your head only. I have told you that. Why do you think that anyone else can make you feel any emotion, they are all a product of your own mind.
You sure about that ocpaul20? Because you are the one who said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20
If physics got their finger out and really wanted to prove things, they could start by inventing a device to measure energy which is supposedly held by the body in life and released at death. Not something which uses a sledge-hammer to crack a nut like they do with MRI and CAT scans. We are going to have to develop these devices which do not need thousands of volts to measure tiny amounts of energy. These days we have nano-sized machines so why cant we use that technology to be subtle about it.
Just a few posts ago. You seem to have high standards for others yet none for yourself.
I think a prayer for somebody else to change is imposing on their free will in a sense. If you are sending out the energy and the idea is to create change then that is meddling. I don't 'pray' but I do energy work and there isn't much difference. It probably is the same kind of thing but more meddlesome. I don't do anything without permission so on a level their higher self or subconscious self does agree to receive help. Usually they are praying for it or wishing for it or asking for it so there is no need to ask permission in those cases. They already asked. When you ask for help, it can come from any source.
I think a prayer for somebody else to change is imposing on their free will in a sense. If you are sending out the energy and the idea is to create change then that is meddling.
Dont tell that to some of the orthodox religions. They dont like to hear that because they like to think prayer is all about doing good for others. My sister is in a church healing group and this is what she believes.
We just dont know what effect it has and how lasting the effects are. Maybe the belief is that something done in the name of God cannot be harmful, but that is not the way it is portrayed, at least in the Old Testament. God itself did many harmful actions. In the New Testament, what about the demons going into pigs? I wonder what the pigs thought about that? I am certainly not an expert in this so there may be further examples or explanations which make it more acceptable.
Dont tell that to some of the orthodox religions. They dont like to hear that because they like to think prayer is all about doing good for others. My sister is in a church healing group and this is what she believes.
But their belief is as valid as yours. Also I do not see the harm in those praying for others because in the case of prayer they are not the final arbiter in the matter. They are basically praying for the person to get better as they see it but their higher power knows more than them and may not do as the person praying wishes. This is not a wasted prayer though because the higher power still knows what their true intentions are and can take those into account if it wishes.
Also prayer has many uses that are being overlooked in this thread. In some faiths couples are counseled to pray together before bed or in crisis. This can serve many purposes like opening up communication between those two people and letting each know what their fears and desires are or just spending time together. Some people find comfort in prayer.
I am not sure why so many people are so hung up on the technicalities of how others worship?
This all seems so common sense yet it is over analyzed to a point where it does not and replaced with something which seems exactly the same to me which is touted as the truth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20
We just dont know what effect it has and how lasting the effects are. Maybe the belief is that something done in the name of God cannot be harmful, but that is not the way it is portrayed, at least in the Old Testament. God itself did many harmful actions. In the New Testament, what about the demons going into pigs? I wonder what the pigs thought about that? I am certainly not an expert in this so there may be further examples or explanations which make it more acceptable.
Yeah, I wonder what those pigs thought? I wonder what any pig thinks. I wonder how pigs think.
I think a prayer for somebody else to change is imposing on their free will in a sense. If you are sending out the energy and the idea is to create change then that is meddling. I don't 'pray' but I do energy work and there isn't much difference. It probably is the same kind of thing but more meddlesome. I don't do anything without permission so on a level their higher self or subconscious self does agree to receive help. Usually they are praying for it or wishing for it or asking for it so there is no need to ask permission in those cases. They already asked. When you ask for help, it can come from any source.
I believe in prayer. the power of collective prayer and healing. I'm not sure prayer for someones change imposes or affects their free at all? I can say... I wish they'd want to change, but I'd never pray for their change; they either want it for themselves or they don't, even if they don't know how to start that process.
Over this past winter an in-law was diagnosed with a brain tumor, cancer detected through testing that metastasized from another area. The MRI showed it, the family saw it and agreed for a biopsy; during the procedure the physician couldn't locate the tumor....no longer there. Families first thought, physicians mistake, but later attributed their strong faith and outpouring of prayer. Definitely renewed my faith in the power of prayer and power of collective conscious.
I am not sure why so many people are so hung up on the technicalities of how others worship?
This all seems so common sense yet it is over analyzed to a point where it does not and replaced with something which seems exactly the same to me which is touted as the truth?
Because it is exactly that reason why you are not taught the mechanics of it all. We do not know enough for it to be common sense and if you are being told this then you may not be thinking deeply enough about the details and how it all fits together to make a working Universe. This is rather like the way we explain things to children who perhaps do not have the experience and knowledge to understand more complicated technicalities. Now we are adults we should be questioning how things work or finding out and documenting it.
Yes, it all might give us a good feeling that we are being good citizens and doing the right things for our community, but there is probably so much more on a cosmic level which we could be doing. Why settle for a highschool certificate when we could go for a Masters degree?
There have been occult societies throughout the ages which have investigated and documented all these phenomena and have explained how it all hangs together. They may not have it 100% yet, but at least they have tried to do it and their attempts may have the basis for what really happens. Orthodox religions are not coming clean about the real techniques and how they work - if they know. Any belief system which teaches an intermediary is control-based because you HAVE to go through that intermediary to 'get to God' or achieve the benefits of being a member of the group. There are truths in there but they are wrapped up in half-truths and my point about thoughts are energy constructs with intelligence is an example which orthodox religions have adopted the concept but fail to teach the detail.
Why cant people realise having any kind of intermediary is a control mechanism? I (my soul) do not want to be saved if it means having to submit my will to some other being, I would rather learn the rules of the game, use my own choices and deal directly with the boss.
To me; free will is what seperates humans from animals.
It is how we rise above our primal instincts. It provides us with the ability to be monogamous, law-abiding, have faith & the ability to love.
The more we give in to our instincts the more de-evolved we become, the closer we get to self-imploding as a species & self-imploding the planet we were given dominion over.
It transcends science; DNA...it's why we are who we are instead of being like the other primates; swinging from trees.
To me; free will is what seperates humans from animals.
It is how we rise above our primal instincts. It provides us with the ability to be monogamous, law-abiding, have faith & the ability to love.
The more we give in to our instincts the more de-evolved we become, the closer we get to self-imploding as a species & self-imploding the planet we were given dominion over.
It transcends science; DNA...it's why we are who we are instead of being like the other primates; swinging from trees.
Really? Where does Bigfoot fit into that?
Who is better off, has a better 'quality of life' (whatever that is)? The guy who lives in an apartment in New York or the guy who lives close to nature? Are instincts such a bad thing that you would prefer to lose them completely? When the proverbial SHTF, do you think the guy from New York will be better off then? With his computer controlled water and electricity out of action.
Somehow, I think it is debatable whether monogamy and faith is a good thing for the human race and certainly the ability to love can be interpreted in non-human terms without much trouble. There are plenty of stories of animals saving humans, why should they do that?
Laws? well, they are all man-made and culture specific aren't they? Interesting that you think we have dominion over the Earth, plants, animals etc because we are not doing too well at this at the moment, so we might need to think about assigning someone else to do it for us. They might do it a bit better than we do. At the moment, we are running the Earth into the ground and soon she will wipe us all off. Then, where will our dominion be?
I certainly do not think we have evolved very far unless you mean technologically, do you? I think of evolution as being more responsible for the things we have custody of (as opposed to dominion over).
We are certainly most definitely raping and pillaging the Earth and its resources and no-one can argue we are doing a good job at what has possibly been assigned to us to protect and nurture. I think there is nothing anyone can say which will convince me any different, but then you might have some faiths which I do not. Besides, I am just a tree-hugging hippie!
Last edited by ocpaul20; 08-09-2016 at 12:23 AM..
Reason: hippie
I agree about the prayer. You are asking for help for another person. You aren't demanding it. I would never say that a person's religious beliefs are wrong. I may not be on the exact same page but I can find a common ground.
I assume that 'god' knows the real plan and knows the desires of the individual, and what must be and what could be adjusted. Prayer does help. Thinking about something makes a difference. Thoughts are effective tools for manipulating energy or creating change.
I don't believe in free will the way that people think. I think there is a script that we follow, but the script can be rewritten and it is all the time. We participate in the plan. What we decide to do in the moment has already been written. That is my understanding of how free will works. Every adjustment in the script requires an entire rewrite of the past and the future but that is constantly going on.
Nobody pick on me for this please because I am not saying that anybody has to believe this, including me. It is what I was taught and it is simply an idea to consider.
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I wonder what any pig thinks. I wonder how pigs think.
