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Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland
That's an interesting idea and probably nobody knows the answer. We are certainly shaped by our heritage and if you were being invaded all the time, you'd better learn to be warlike in order to defend yourselves.
But there are other factors like the harsher living conditions in the North, although was it always like that or was it only during the Industrial Revolution?
Is the land rougher and harder to farm in the North as opposed to the South? Yorkshire grit as compared with ? in the South. Hard, grueling work and living hand to mouth will shape a person's character.
Religions factors such as stoical Non Conformists in the North vs (what?) more gentle religion in the South?
Northerners are known for being tough and in their speaking, blunt and to the point. Actually, the same thing is said for Northerners here in the US, those who live in the New England area. We were first settled by those softie English Southerners --but mostly the ones with strict and often cruel Non Conformist life styles. We have a harsh climate. Oh, it gets complicated and it makes you wonder.
It certainly could be one factor. Even today, the north is both culturally and genetically more Norse/Viking. A map of the UK shows the percentage of blue eyes and blonde hair in the Northeast - say Northumberland, Cleveland, Newcastle, East Riding of Yorkshire, is significantly higher than for say Cornwall or Devon.
Anyway, I think whole ideas about 'northern toughness' is mostly just regional pride. What of the many brave British soldiers who fought in the many wars, not to mention the Two World Wars? The names of those slain in battle can be found in every town from Brighton to Barnsley, Carlisle to Camden.
It certainly could be one factor. Even today, the north is both culturally and genetically more Norse/Viking. A map of the UK shows the percentage of blue eyes and blonde hair in the Northeast - say Northumberland, Cleveland, Newcastle, East Riding of Yorkshire, is significantly higher than for say Cornwall or Devon.
Anyway, I think whole ideas about 'northern toughness' is mostly just regional pride. What of the many brave British soldiers who fought in the many wars, not to mention the Two World Wars? The names of those slain in battle can be found in every town from Brighton to Barnsley, Carlisle to Camden.
The living was harsher in the North than the South or even the Midlands where i am from, most men worked in the coal mines and in the 19th Century women also worked in the pit pushing huge trucks of coal. If you are ever in the UK visit one of the many Industrial Museums in the North that will explain everything.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,116,964 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by cushla
The living was harsher in the North than the South or even the Midlands where i am from, most men worked in the coal mines and in the 19th Century women also worked in the pit pushing huge trucks of coal. If you are ever in the UK visit one of the many Industrial Museums in the North that will explain everything.
Maybe, I'm not arguing life wasn't tough, but for the working class life was pretty hard whether they were in the North or South. Perhaps the north had more dangerous jobs, but there are/were plenty of toughs in places like the East End. London in the 18th century was one of the most dangerous places in the world, you'd be liable to get your throat slit at any time, or hanged from stealing a loaf of bread. It was full of criminals, certainly also dangerous and tough if you ask me.
When I was a kid, i would often hear Southerners referred to as 'softies.' The northern English upbringing seen as somehow 'harder.' An old Southern comment was 'it's grim up north.'!!
The north was grim! Full of cotton mills, coal mines, the steel industries, engineering. The industrial engine that drove Britain.
Many people like my grandmother lived and died within a few miles of where she was born. The town she was born, and lived in, and died in was called Oldham. Her husband was born there, and all her five children lived their lives there. None ever left. Except for a few instances, like maybe a short holiday to the coastal town of Blackpool, they never left the town. For the main part, Oldham could have been an island! They were typical of the times they lived in. Many other people were just like them.
Yes, it is noted that English people tended to migrate less than Americans. There are many people today who have ancestry in their home town dating back centuries. But not everyone stayed put. I'm American and one of my ancestors was actually from the Oldham/Royton area too. For some reason, his family (who were all from Oldham or Royton) temporarily relocated to Ashton-under-Lyne around 1841 before going back to Royton by 1851. He then left England altogether in 1856 on his own and made a home and started a family in Pennsylvania. His family in England had been very poor farmers and his teenage sister had been working in a cotton factory before he left. His father wound up dying alone in a workhouse. But by the time he himself died, he had a 56 acre estate on which sat two large houses. All 7 of his sons were quite wealthy and members of high society in the Philadelphia suburbs.
He was obviously an ambitious man who wanted to make a better life for himself in America and he did just that. But he was described by one of his descendants who had known him as "stern and unloveable", which reflects the stereotype of the hardened northerner of England. It is perhaps because of his harsh background that made him capable of achieving what he did.
Quote:
But there are other factors like the harsher living conditions in the North, although was it always like that or was it only during the Industrial Revolution?
The living conditions in the north were always harsher but probably for different reasons. Going back before the industrial revolution, particularly in the middle ages, London was the main point of importation. So foreign culture and luxuries flourished there and in surrounding southern areas and were probably harder to find up north. For the same reason, London was a town of vital importance and therefore the most powerful people in the nation circulated in or around it. Furthermore, the north has always had harsher weather.
That is not to say there was no poverty or no peasants in the south. But Londoners, even the common people, held a significant amount of power purely in their numbers and the fact that London was such an important city. During times of civil war or rebellion, the support of the Londoners could make or break a win.
My grandmother was the main person in my life born in Queen Victoria's reign in 1892. She would tell me things about her life as a young woman that astonished me as a 14 year old kid living with her.
As I said, she lived in the same tiny house that she'd spent all her adult, married life in. She had carried and give birth to 12 children. 6 had died in infancy, and as very young children. One, as a 21 year old with a brain tumour. When she told me, I was astonished. Apparently this wasn't rare. Children died of things easily treatable today.
She told me of places like the 'workhouse'. This is before the days of pensions for the elderly. If you became old and infirm, without family to look after you, you went to the workhouse till you died.
Working class women spent their days at home, looking after their children, and doing household chores without the benefit of even vacuum cleaners. Her kitchen floor was big slabs of stone. She would scrub it with a hand brush, and a bucket of hot soapy water. When dry, she would rub something called a 'donkey stone' all over it. This coated the floor with a chalky, yellowish layer. This was also done to the front stone window sill, and the stone step below the front door. As soon as you walked on it, it was smudged. I failed to see the point, but most women did this. I suppose it looked nice and clean when it had been done.
For washing clothes, she had a steel beer barrel shaped thing. She filled it with hot water, and put all the dirty clothes in it. Then, with a long wooden stick, with like a wooden round plate on the end, she would pummel the clothes in the barrel. She had a wash board with a wiggly steel surface that she scrubbed some of the washing on. Then a wringer to put the clothing through to squeeze out the water. She never had a real washing machine in her life, never owned even a fridge, or television.
To me, living with this old lady for over a year, was like being in a time warp. But her generation were as tough as old boots. She lived through two world wars, had one of her sons a prisoner of the Germans for five years, and lost six children, five barely more than babies. She died in 1971, I was only 18. I wish I had been older and more mature when I lived with her. There was so much I could have asked her. I would love to have told her how much I admired her grit, and guts living such a hard life. I was just a stupid kid and didn't know any better.
I agree about asking things. We are doing our family tree and I would've loved to find out all about my Grandfather, he only died a few years ago but we did not ask him these details.
It certainly could be one factor. Even today, the north is both culturally and genetically more Norse/Viking. A map of the UK shows the percentage of blue eyes and blonde hair in the Northeast - say Northumberland, Cleveland, Newcastle, East Riding of Yorkshire, is significantly higher than for say Cornwall or Devon.
Anyway, I think whole ideas about 'northern toughness' is mostly just regional pride. What of the many brave British soldiers who fought in the many wars, not to mention the Two World Wars? The names of those slain in battle can be found in every town from Brighton to Barnsley, Carlisle to Camden.
It basically boils down to class. The whole "Northern toughness" is based on the values of the industrial working class: physical work, male bonding, straight-forwardness, group solidarity, celebration of old-school manliness, rejection of things seen as effete or efeminate, a certain anti-intellectual undercurrent, a glorification of tough living conditions..., whereas stereotypically middle and upper-class values are more commonly associated with the South.
It basically boils down to class. The whole "Northern toughness" is based on the values of the industrial working class: physical work, male bonding, straight-forwardness, group solidarity, celebration of old-school manliness, rejection of things seen as effete or efeminate, a certain anti-intellectual undercurrent, a glorification of tough living conditions..., whereas stereotypically middle and upper-class values are more commonly associated with the South.
Would you say the north of England has the place the Southern US does in the US?
Would you say the north of England has the place the Southern US does in the US?
imho that could well be the case. In the past I would think the north eastern US was more like the northern UK with our mills, our harsh weather, poor soil for agriculture, and people just eking out an existence. We New Englanders were "solemn" and "stolid" and it was usually largely attributed to our harsh climate. We supposedly don't speak much, just when necessary. Stingy too. We even contributed a US President called Silent Cal. (Calvin Coolidge.)
The southerners had their huge cotton plantations with slaves and lived a life of luxury. It's all changed now. The northeast has a lot of money now and we have always been known for education--that's the legacy of those stern Puritans who settled here and started Harvard in 1638. One of our main "industries" now is education.
Of course these are generalizations! There were always pockets of wealth and education in New England, particularly in Boston. It was said that we produced great writers and poets due to our climate that forced people to stay inside and write or think.
You can still find plenty of no nonsense, rather grim but down to earth people in states like Maine, far north. Hard working and self sufficient. But when you go to most places in New England I think they've become the softies now. Maybe the differences are not as pronounced now as they were in the past; people re-locate and even though one place differs from another they're not as different as they used to be.
Yes, even the youngest of children still have strong regional accents or dialects in most areas, in my experience. I don't believe media influence can change an accent - it's not like people only have regional accents because they've never been exposed to something else. A child will generally speak with the accent of where they grew up - even if their own parents have different accent. So if the greatest influence in their life, their parents, can not override the influence of local speech, why should the media?
But Geordie isn't just an accent, as someone else said ,it's almost a language of it's own. Most people in the NE of England will have a regional accent, but it may or may not be strong. However, not that many people are true Geordies or speak "proper" Geordie!
I had a work mate who was from close to Glasgow-as was her husband. They lived in Newcastle but when they had chikdren, both of them spoke with strong Scotish accents. It was quite fascinating.
Last edited by Whatsthenews; 10-20-2013 at 06:17 PM..
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