Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'd ride the bus in a heartbeat if I could -- I miss my early morning catnap! Alas, transferring three times (at $1 a pop on top of the $4 fare) and a 90+-minute ride is just not worth it. My time is more valuable. If the bus ride were 45 minutes with one or no transfers, it would be a different story.
And people complained when our bus fare went from $1 to $1.25 a couple years ago. Oh, and transfers used to be free, but now they're a quarter.
I'd ride the bus in a heartbeat if I could -- I miss my early morning catnap! Alas, transferring three times (at $1 a pop on top of the $4 fare) and a 90+-minute ride is just not worth it. My time is more valuable. If the bus ride were 45 minutes with one or no transfers, it would be a different story.
Could you get a monthly pass? A monthly pass here, which includes all forms of transit (subway, light rail, bus) except commuter rail is $64.
No, $4 a gallon is only the beginning. Eventually people will begin to leave the suburbs in ever increasing numbers to areas that are not auto dependent. Where the percentage of money spent on commuting is lower. It's already happening slowly.
I join the chorus who asks, what makes you think all jobs are in the center city? In my 40 year career in nursing, I have only commuted from suburb to city at one job. I've worked in six different states, in large metro areas in three. Since we moved to Denver 30 years ago, I've had two jobs as a visiting nurse where the office was in the city, but my patients were all over the place, and I only went to the office for meetings and/or to pick up supplies. Most of my jobs here have been in the burbs, including a large suburban hospital, two suburban health departments, and now a suburban doctor's office. My husband has never worked in the city. The big job centers in IT in metro Denver are downtown, The Denver Tech Center a couple miles south of the Denver city limits, Broomfield (you may google it) and Boulder. At one point, DH and I lived in the city and we both commuted to the burbs.
Quote:
The problem with thinking people are going to live near their employer is that many people don't make enough to live near their employer. The other problem is most people aren't going to move every time they are laid off and find another job 30 miles away. I've had six employers in the last ten years and have had to commute to all ends of the metro area for these jobs. It is cheaper to drive than go through the expense and hassle of selling and buying every time you go through the lay-off cycle, and this is the norm for several occupation now.
LOL, do you work in IT?
I agree with the bold.
Another problem with married couples is that they may each work miles apart from each other.
Increased funding would allow more frequent (and so less crowded) service. The vehicles, whether train, bus, etc. would be maintained better, and could be kept cleaner.
I'm not talking about the crowding issue. I'm talking about the problematic people on public transportation. Nobody wants to spend their 30-minute commute on a train or bus sitting next to that homeless person who the people at the back of the bus can smell. Then there is the problem with behavior on public transportation. There are numerous videos on YouTube of robberies and assaults on public transportation. People aren't going to embrace public transportation until some level of acknowledgment and resolution to these problems is found.
Quote:
As Ohiogirl81 points out, this isn't a black and white issue. All jobs aren't in the suburbs, not everyone changes jobs every 2-3 years, living near your place of employment isn't always more expenseive.
The fact of the matter is the majority of jobs are in the suburbs. Most of those jobs are at the retail level in the service sector. People in these jobs change jobs frequently, by choice, or just due to the high rate of these types of employers firing people because they didn't smile the correct way. IT and computer information jobs are typically clustered in various areas out in the suburbs. There is usually a hospital or surgery center in the downtown area of most cities, however, the majority of jobs in healthcare are out in the suburbs.
Also, someone mentioned how silly it would be for someone to live downtown and work in the suburbs. It isn't silly at all. I live downtown and every job I've had has been out in the suburbs. I had to drive distances of 20-37 miles for these jobs. Several people on my block work out in the suburbs. It isn't unusual at all.
Quote:
There are about 12 people that work in my office. 5 of us could easily use mass-transit to commute to work. But I'm the only one who does, because it isn't convenient enough for the others. (it is too infrequent/inconvenient to justify the cost savings) If people paid the true cost of driving, (or if gas prices continue to climb) I'm sure they will reconsider their choice.
Again, people are paying for the cost of driving. I've posted links to the revenues and expenditures several times, and that the fuel taxes also assist greatly in the funding of public transportation, but people on one side of the fence seem to have selective hearing and ignore it. People buying fuel are subsidizing public transportation. The people with a absolute mindset against public transportation would really like to see people using it to pay the real cost of running it.
What are the inconveniences for those people who aren't using public transportation? I've had several jobs where I could have taken a bus, but it was really inconvenient, so I didn't bother. To take transit out to these jobs it would have taken me two hours for a normally 20-35 minute drive. It would have involved three transfers on on the first transit agency, then an additional transfer on the second transit agency. I'm not going to spend four hours a day on a bus. If routes were planned properly, the local transit agency could bring that down to an hour. It will never be down to 20-35 minutes because the stops between here and there would prohibit it, so after the wait time to board and the actual ride, people getting off work at 5:00 PM would arrive at home sometime between 6:15 to 6:30. If they drive they could get in some grocery shopping and arrive home at the same time.
Could you get a monthly pass? A monthly pass here, which includes all forms of transit (subway, light rail, bus) except commuter rail is $64.
It's not worth any amount of money to me to spend three hours a day on the bus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC6ZLV
I'm not talking about the crowding issue. I'm talking about the problematic people on public transportation. Nobody wants to spend their 30-minute commute on a train or bus sitting next to that homeless person who the people at the back of the bus can smell. Then there is the problem with behavior on public transportation.
It's my experience that the weirdos only ride the buses on off-peak hours.
Quote:
Also, someone mentioned how silly it would be for someone to live downtown and work in the suburbs. It isn't silly at all. I live downtown and every job I've had has been out in the suburbs. I had to drive distances of 20-37 miles for these jobs. Several people on my block work out in the suburbs. It isn't unusual at all.
I don't think it's unusual or silly; however, several people have posted that their perfect little utopia would include everyone living in the city and that people should live closer to their jobs. It was the contradiction I was trying to underscore, especially since public transportation is lacking in the suburbs, especially to suburban office and industrial parks, retail centers, etc.
I'm not talking about the crowding issue. I'm talking about the problematic people on public transportation. Nobody wants to spend their 30-minute commute on a train or bus sitting next to that homeless person who the people at the back of the bus can smell. Then there is the problem with behavior on public transportation. There are numerous videos on YouTube of robberies and assaults on public transportation. People aren't going to embrace public transportation until some level of acknowledgment and resolution to these problems is found.
I ride the public bus everyday and have never experienced anything remotely like what you are talking about. Actually I've made more new acquaintances and casual friends than i did when i would drive. My commute is actually quite pleasant. Could you share your negative experiences?
It's not worth any amount of money to me to spend three hours a day on the bus..
Are you 100% certain that the only combination of transit you can use will take that long? I think google maps says my commute will take 1.5 hours but it's really only about 45 minutes.
Also, could you bike to eliminate one or two of those transfers? That's what I do. My whole trip from the city to the suburbs (I work in one of those suburban office park areas but there OK bus service, thankfully) ends up taking about 45 minutes, driving usually takes 30. You've got to love riding (and I do) to do it in the cold, though.
We're about to take a snowboarding trip so I drove my fiance's car to work today instead of my usual bike/bus commute to make sure it's driving OK. It's the first time I've driven to work in a while, and I feel strangely more exhausted than if I had biked and bused. Jockeying for position with school buses and Lincoln Navigators for 35 minutes this morning was not as pleasant as 45 or 50 pedaling, reading or sleeping.
Ohiogirl, please be aware I'm not attacking your position. Just relaying my personal tale.
I'm not talking about the crowding issue. I'm talking about the problematic people on public transportation. Nobody wants to spend their 30-minute commute on a train or bus sitting next to that homeless person who the people at the back of the bus can smell. Then there is the problem with behavior on public transportation. There are numerous videos on YouTube of robberies and assaults on public transportation. People aren't going to embrace public transportation until some level of acknowledgment and resolution to these problems is found.
I second what progmac said.
Quote:
The fact of the matter is the majority of jobs are in the suburbs. Most of those jobs are at the retail level in the service sector. People in these jobs change jobs frequently, by choice, or just due to the high rate of these types of employers firing people because they didn't smile the correct way. IT and computer information jobs are typically clustered in various areas out in the suburbs. There is usually a hospital or surgery center in the downtown area of most cities, however, the majority of jobs in healthcare are out in the suburbs.
Mass-transit is designed to serve employment centers, retail centers, and medical facilities. This might be one of the few ways that mass-transit is more effective in smaller metro areas; all these areas can be served relatively easily. Also, Youngstown happens to have maintained a relatively centralized business district downtown. I've worked for the same company for 10 years now. If I had to find another job, most of the other architecture firms are also downtown. The few that aren't, are served by the same buses that go to the malls in the suburbs.
Quote:
Also, someone mentioned how silly it would be for someone to live downtown and work in the suburbs. It isn't silly at all. I live downtown and every job I've had has been out in the suburbs. I had to drive distances of 20-37 miles for these jobs. Several people on my block work out in the suburbs. It isn't unusual at all.
That's often called a reverse commute. In some cities, at least in the rust belt, this allows the reverse commuter to avoid heavy traffic, because most people are commuting from the suburbs into the city.
Quote:
Again, people are paying for the cost of driving. I've posted links to the revenues and expenditures several times, and that the fuel taxes also assist greatly in the funding of public transportation, but people on one side of the fence seem to have selective hearing and ignore it. People buying fuel are subsidizing public transportation. The people with a absolute mindset against public transportation would really like to see people using it to pay the real cost of running it.
Who is ignoring who? I, and others, have pointed out numerous times that roads are subsidized by non-user fees.
What are the inconveniences for those people who aren't using public transportation? I've had several jobs where I could have taken a bus, but it was really inconvenient, so I didn't bother. To take transit out to these jobs it would have taken me two hours for a normally 20-35 minute drive. It would have involved three transfers on on the first transit agency, then an additional transfer on the second transit agency. I'm not going to spend four hours a day on a bus. If routes were planned properly, the local transit agency could bring that down to an hour. It will never be down to 20-35 minutes because the stops between here and there would prohibit it, so after the wait time to board and the actual ride, people getting off work at 5:00 PM would arrive at home sometime between 6:15 to 6:30. If they drive they could get in some grocery shopping and arrive home at the same time.
If I could drive, my commute would be about 10 minutes. But, my commute using mass-transit is about 25 minutes. The extra 15 minutes is the sum of time it takes to walk to the bus stop, and the time it takes to walk across downtown from the station to my office. One co-worker lives about 5 blocks further away from the office than I do. (on the same bus route) So, the only reason they don't use it, is because they want to sleep in an extra half-hour, and don't want the extra 15 minutes of walk time. (I arrive at the office 15 minutes early because of bus timing, and they arrive on time) Another co-worker lives further out in the suburbs. But, their commute would also only be 15 minutes longer, because their drive in to work is the same route as the bus route that serves them. They probably couldn't use it everyday, because her husband isn't home every day to take their daughter to daycare. But, she could on the many mornings that he is home. I don't know the specifics about the others, except that they are served by bus routes.
It's not worth any amount of money to me to spend three hours a day on the bus.
It's my experience that the weirdos only ride the buses on off-peak hours.
I don't think it's unusual or silly; however, several people have posted that their perfect little utopia would include everyone living in the city and that people should live closer to their jobs. It was the contradiction I was trying to underscore, especially since public transportation is lacking in the suburbs, especially to suburban office and industrial parks, retail centers, etc.
Who? While my idea of a good time includes me living in the city, nobody is calling for everyone to live in the city. There is a difference between "I like X" and "Everyone has to like X" that many people seem to have a difficult time understanding. Currently, the system is skewed so that everyone has to like the suburbs; personally, all I'm looking for is balance.
Public transit is often lacking in the suburbs because there is no connection between land use planning and public transit, and because the suburbs are enormously decentralized. Public transit depends on a predictable and practical route, ideally in a straight line or something close to it. But auto suburbs aren't built in a straight line, they are an amorphous blob. That's fine at smaller scales, but as you scale a city up it gets harder and harder to navigate that blob, even in a car--but it becomes even harder, even faster, for other transit modes.
Once upon a time, there was direct linkage between suburbs and public transit. A suburban developer who also owned the streetcar line deliberately placed retail areas adjacent to the line, to make them convenient, placed lines close to job centers, to encourage people to use those lines to commute to work, and placed entertainment destinations like parks and sports fields at important spots along the lines, all with the intent of getting more customers to spend money at those destinations and drop a nickel in the streetcar farebox to get there.
These developers weren't building cheek-by-jowl urban tenements--they were building SUBURBS, intended for families and children, with fresh air, trees, grass, parks, pleasant shops, and all the amenities. But they were a different sort of suburb than the kind that is built today.
As to the reverse commute: It's often easier than the regular commute direction because you don't have to fight as much traffic, and if you work in a field where jobs shift frequently it might be unavoidable. Personally I prefer living very close to work (preferably close enough to walk) which means I don't have to use a car OR public transit, but that's my druthers. If more people did that there would be fewer people clogging the highways in the morning, just as those on public transit aren't. Redesigning cities would make that easier, for the people who DO want to live downtown, and make traffic lighter for those that don't.
A lot of jobs are in the suburbs now, for the same reason why people move there: it's cheaper (due to various subsidies and less need to worry about externalities) and facilitated by current land-use and transportation patterns. But in the city where KC6ZLV and I live, the central city has 11% of the region's jobs and about 2% of the population. If every single person who lived in our central city worked downtown, including the retired seniors, newborn babies, and the stinky homeless guy who sits next to KC6ZLV on the bus, we'd still need four times the number of suburban commuters to fill the jobs here right now.
I ride the public bus everyday and have never experienced anything remotely like what you are talking about.
Oh, you absolutely must take a trip on a local bus on off-peak hours during a weekday. There's a whole social subculture that centers on riding the bus all day. May I suggest the Route 11 from Madisonville into Walnut Hills? It's quite fascinating. Especially when the bus sits at a stop ... and sits ... while everyone socializes on the curb before getting on/off the bus. You don't see it during rush hour or on the express routes, but once the fares go down ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by HandsUpThumbsDown
Are you 100% certain that the only combination of transit you can use will take that long?
I've researched it extensively, so yes, I'm 100 percent certain.
Quote:
Also, could you bike to eliminate one or two of those transfers? That's what I do.
Only at the risk of being killed. Sorry. And not all buses have the capacity to carry bikes, and you can't take them on the train during peak hours.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Alas, transferring three times (at $1 a pop on top of the $4 fare) and a 90+-minute ride is just not worth it. My time is more valuable. If the bus ride were 45 minutes with one or no transfers, it would be a different story.
And people complained when our bus fare went from $1 to $1.25 a couple years ago. Oh, and transfers used to be free, but now they're a quarter.
Especially when the bus sits at a stop ... and sits ... while everyone socializes on the curb before getting on/off the bus. You don't see it during rush hour or on the express routes, but once the fares go down ... 
