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A "vibrant urban environment" can be had in the burbs as well.
Of course it can. But it often isn't. Let's face it, comparatively speaking, there are fewer options for a vibrant urban environment than an autocentric environment in most places, urban and suburban alike, throughout our country.
Of course it can. But it often isn't. Let's face it, comparatively speaking, there are fewer options for a vibrant urban environment than an autocentric environment in most places, urban and suburban alike, throughout our country.
I'm not sure that being able to walk everywhere (and who, even in the city, can actually walk everywhere they need to get to?) is the definition of "vibrant".
I'm not sure that being able to walk everywhere (and who, even in the city, can actually walk everywhere they need to get to?) is the definition of "vibrant".
Who said that you need to be able to walk everywhere? However, if you compare a nice pedestrian environment and the Target parking lot or a 6-lane collector street, you're not going to find much vibrancy in the latter(s).
I take the bus to the mall, grocery store, work, restaurants, and other area cities where I spend the day walking. And yes, to Target. I don't walk everywhere. But I live in a vibrant, pedestrian-oriented environment, one of the very few in my area (which was originally built hundreds of years before cars). Multiply this scarcity by hundreds of metro areas and you find you're lacking in options for vibrant, pedestrian-oriented environments, comparatively speaking.
Edit: Oh, also, never once did I say that people should be able to walk everywhere or that doing so is the only way to define vibrancy. While I did respond to what you wrote, please don't put words in my mouth.
Haha it doesn't, I just feel like I'll want to have my own front and back and side yards someday. The way I see life playing out post-college is city in my later 20s, burbs (hopefully a nice walkable one) after that, and back to the city later on in life.
Who said that you need to be able to walk everywhere? However, if you compare a nice pedestrian environment and the Target parking lot or a 6-lane collector street, you're not going to find much vibrancy in the latter(s).
I take the bus to the mall, grocery store, work, restaurants, and other area cities where I spend the day walking. And yes, to Target. I don't walk everywhere. But I live in a vibrant, pedestrian-oriented environment, one of the very few in my area (which was originally built hundreds of years before cars). Multiply this scarcity by hundreds of metro areas and you find you're lacking in options for vibrant, pedestrian-oriented environments, comparatively speaking.
Edit: Oh, also, never once did I say that people should be able to walk everywhere or that doing so is the only way to define vibrancy. While I did respond to what you wrote, please don't put words in my mouth.
Well, I apologize for implying that you had said that, however, you did refer to "autocentric" areas.
Targets are by their very being not too vibrant, but they are locating in cities now, too, at least in Denver.
I live in a fairly walkable suburban city. Even though I live on top of a hill, and generally drive downtown, it is possible to walk around downtown. One almost always sees someone they know, as this is a city of 20,000 people.
Well, I apologize for implying that you had said that, however, you did refer to "autocentric" areas.
Targets are by their very being not too vibrant, but they are locating in cities now, too, at least in Denver.
I live in a fairly walkable suburban city. Even though I live on top of a hill, and generally drive downtown, it is possible to walk around downtown. One almost always sees someone they know, as this is a city of 20,000 people.
That's true about Targets, Walmarts are, too. My point by using the term 'autocentric' is that when places are created by considering only the needs of automobiles, vibrancy tends to suffer. The fortunate thing is that the variety of choices is growing, but when people keep harping on it, it's more likely to continue.
It's important to remember that not all areas or suburbs are equal or the same, and yours sounds very nice. Your description of the hill and downtown reminds me of Watervliet, a streetcar suburb of Albany - a pretty nice, blue-collar, family-oriented town that is very pleasant (though I'm sure the demographics differ from your city). The Denver area seems like a place that is learning and constantly getting better. It's pretty high on my list of places to visit.
That's true about Targets, Walmarts are, too. My point by using the term 'autocentric' is that when places are created by considering only the needs of automobiles, vibrancy tends to suffer. The fortunate thing is that the variety of choices is growing, but when people keep harping on it, it's more likely to continue.
It's important to remember that not all areas or suburbs are equal or the same, and yours sounds very nice. Your description of the hill and downtown reminds me of Watervliet, a streetcar suburb of Albany - a pretty nice, blue-collar, family-oriented town that is very pleasant (though I'm sure the demographics differ from your city). The Denver area seems like a place that is learning and constantly getting better. It's pretty high on my list of places to visit.
Hey! I didn't notice you were from Albany until just now. We lived there for about a year, in Loudonville. Now that was, probably still is, an autocentric area. Still it was rather nice, but I like it out here better.
Hey! I didn't notice you were from Albany until just now. We lived there for about a year, in Loudonville. Now that was, probably still is, an autocentric area. Still it was rather nice, but I like it out here better.
It definitely is, but there is a lot of reinvestment in the cities that's beginning to pick up. I'm in the Center Square neighborhood of Albany, by Lark Street. Glad to hear you enjoyed it here! If I wasn't so attached to the Northeast I would definitely consider anywhere near the Rockies, or the Pacific Northwest. Who knows? Maybe someday.
No one is forcing suburbanites to live in a clean, walkable, vibrant environment. But, there are so few urban environments available (especially for those with kids; because city schools generally perform poorly due to flight of families to the suburbs) that many feel their only choice is to live on a pasture.
How are there few urban environments available? We have cities? If you want urbanity, I don't see why you wouldn't live in an URBAN environment.
The argument about urban schools generally performing poorly is tired. There are plenty of urban public schools (depending on the city, of course) which offer strong academics. If public schools don't work out, there is always the choice of parochial or some other private school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg
Your hallways are only 3' wide and your ceilings are only 7' high? No wonder you want your kids to play outside!
It sounds like it's also all about grossly inaccurate perceptions about city life (and some equally preciously held illusions about suburban life) and a profound fear of other human beings. Oh well, if that's what it takes to sell the product!
It becomes a requirement when it becomes the only available product--in most of the United States there is no alternative to the car-dependent way of life, even for those who want something else. It becomes a requirement when it is expected that everyone should "settle down" into a suburban home, and anyone who doesn't want to is irresponsible, or guilty of some sort of child abuse for not having a backyard.
There is nothing grossly inaccurate about the dimensions that I provided. I lived in the New York area for more than a decade, so I know exactly what kind of tissue boxes people choose to live in. I have had panic attacks on more than one occasion due to extreme claustrophobia. If anything, 7' high ceilings and 3' wide hallways is being generous.
It's obvious from the massive dense housing stock available in our cities that there are options for everyone. The fact that you keep saying that there are no options tells me that you want urban "amenities" the middle of nowhere, because urban "amenities" certainly do exist in URBAN areas. You clearly want new suburban development to fit your requirements when it is clear that this is not what most suburban people want.
AGAIN, no one is requiring you to live in the suburbs when you settle down. Some people like being squeezed like sardines into some apartment building, with people swarming around day and night. Most people settling down don't find this desirable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaykibs
Get a nicer apartment? Besides, many people are a) having fewer or no children or b) putting off having them. They should have options as well.
(1) True, you wouldn't want your kids to learn casual social skills in a real-life environment. The horror! (2) Haha, cute. (3) The narrower the street, the slower the cars. Also, most people (kids included) walk on sidewalks.
Wow, no bias or spin here.
Agreed. The choice to live in a vibrant urban environment should be available to more people.
You have an option to live your urbane lifestyle. Move to the city .
(1) Mingling with strangers is not an exercise of "casual" social skills. When you have crack fiends and heroin addicts erratically shaking down the street trying to talk to your children, "casual" social skills will be the last thing on your mind.
(2) It's a shame that people brush off the very apparent gang problems many cities have. Once the bullets start flying from rival gangs, it will be anything but a "cute" situation.
(3) What planet do you live on where you think cars slow on streets JUST because they're narrower? All it takes is one out of control car to hop the curb and that's it. At least in a suburban community you're more than likely in a car yourself, eliminating the possibility of being plowed down.
I have my own opinion. You obviously have your delusions about what city life is like, clearly showing me that you have NEVER lived in a city before. City life is grueling, unsafe, filthy, and stressful. I have stayed with friends in New York and have been completely horrified, depressed, and shocked beyond sound that anyone would choose that lifestyle.
To each their own, I guess.
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