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Between Caladium and wburg, I still don't know what would satisfy urbanist in terms of walkability. The ability to safely walk from point A to point B, or does the sidewalk also need to entertain you? Does the landscape need to be designed in a certain way also?
I'll give my own.
Sidewalks that are not chipped and broken
Crosswalks that make sense for the intersection.
Working pedestrian traffic signals
enforcement of pedestrian laws
Ability to safely walk to necessary goods and services (groceries, library, post office, hardware store, etc)
Ability to safely walk to transit that can take you to other parts of the city
I've just described my neighborhood (minus the enforcement). There's some "entertainment" to be found nearby but the businesses in short (5 mins or less) walking distance of my house are mostly "need it" not "want it." That is definitely resultant of the wealth (or relative lack thereof) of my immediate area, however.
Ability to safely walk to necessary goods and services (groceries, library, post office, hardware store, etc)
Ability to safely walk to transit that can take you to other parts of the city
I've just described my neighborhood (minus the enforcement). There's some "entertainment" to be found nearby but the businesses in short (5 mins or less) walking distance of my house are mostly "need it" not "want it." That is definitely resultant of the wealth (or relative lack thereof) of my immediate area, however.
So I got two people who just need safety and 1 who needs entertainment also.
Interesting points. I guess I find this walk more visually stimulating than you do, but I like looking at the birds and the trees, so the walk doesn't seem monotonous to me (in the same way that a walk in the woods is not monotonous to me). But it's cool if it's not your cup of tea. Different strokes, as they say. Also, I should point out that the sound wall in the first photo doesn't continue for the entire length of the road; it comes and goes. So, you can look at houses on that side of the road, and you can look a lot more buildings on the far side of the road where there's a shopping plaza and townhouses, as well as a few houses. I just happen to like walking on the side that has a wall. So there are opportunities to look at buildings if that's your thing.
The important thing to me, though, may be the function of this path--it's not for strolling or looking at scenery, it's used by pedestrians who are walking to destinations. If I used this path strictly for exercise I might be more concerned about variety in scenery, but since I'm using it for more practical purposes and often carrying bags I care more about comfort and safety. I appreciate being away from the zooming cars. I don't worry about getting splashed or slipping on ice in the winter or having to get out of the way of cyclists. It's much more pleasant to walk to a store when you're away from a street like this, IMO.
I agree that if I'm going to be walking along a major arterial, I wouldn't want to be too close to traffic. A buffer of parked cars and an extra wide sidewalk would be an alternative for making walking there more enjoyable, especially if there are storefronts instead of blank walls (even though your road isn't blank walls all the way, there are similar arterials that are). Spadina Avenue in my city for example: Spadina and Dundas, Toronto - Google Maps
Back to the original question though, I think there are some people who are just lazy or not very interested in walking. The suburb where I lived as a teenager, the lots were about 1/4 acre and shops where either in a strip mall or the suburb's downtown, in both cases 20-30 min away, and bus service was poor. There were also a lot of teardowns with 1500-2000sf bungalows being replaced by 2 storey homes 2-3x larger. There were a fair bit of schools though, including a catholic school about 5 minutes away, a middle school 10 min away and a junior and high school 20 minutes away. Some of the children in my neighbourhood were still driven to the catholic and middle school, and a lot of them were driven to the high school too. It would have been a relatively short and safe walk (or bike ride), but I guess either the children or the parents didn't like the idea of walking.
I don't care if there aren't any upscale businesses near me. For me, that doesn't make a place walkable. I like having a Tim Hortons (cafe chain, much cheaper than Starbucks), pizzeria and Indian restaurant 2 blocks away when I don't have time to cook, as well as two supermarkets (although they're a bit further than ideal). My roomates probably like having bars and a beer store nearby, but I don't drink much, so it doesn't matter to me. The nearby pharmacy doesn't matter much either, I'm in good health so most of the stuff I'd buy there is also available at the supermarkets (sponges, soap, shampoo), but I can understand why it would matter to others. I'm not sure why post offices are often mentioned, don't most people use email? As for the upscale businesses anchoring the more utilitarian ones, I'm not sure how true that is. In Toronto, a lot of the condo projects have retail podiums, and 90% of the retail consists of the following: pizza and subway chains, banks, dry cleaners, drug stores, hairdressers/spas, starbucks/tim hortons, convenience stores, a few small grocer/deli chains like Rabba Fine Foods or M&M meat shops and the odd supermarket... very similar to the typical suburban strip mall except without the big boxes like Wal Mart or Home Depot. Some people say this is because developers (whether it's condos or strip malls) consider these more safe as initial tenants, and then as the building gets older, more independent business will pop up, which can be anything from an artisanal bakery to a Chinese restaurant...
There are plenty of walkable neighbourhoods in Toronto that lack the upscale artisanal type retail too, for example:
Brockton Village with it's Brazilian futbol bars, Portuguese travel agencies, Vietnamese restaurants, dry cleaners, fruit markets, dollar stores, and other assorted businesses: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Spadin...,334.36,,0,3.2
So I got two people who just need safety and 1 who needs entertainment also.
I think I'd rather be counted as a person who enjoys looking at trees and birds, rather than as a person who just needs safety.
It's fun to see so many different POVs. I would not personally find it "entertaining" to walk down the sidewalk in photo #3 because it's too close to people's homes.I guess I'm just not the type to want to look in windows and be so close to some guy at his kitchen table that I can read his newspaper. If people were sitting on their porches in photo #3 then I would be walking past with them just inches away from me--that's not my idea of entertainment, that's my idea of uncomfortable.
To each his own, but I like to have lots of space and greenery and trees to look at. That's what I find entertaining. Trees are not monotonous to me at all.
I think I'd rather be counted as a person who enjoys looking at trees and birds, rather than as a person who just needs safety.
It's fun to see so many different POVs. I would not personally find it "entertaining" to walk down the sidewalk in photo #3 because it's too close to people's homes.I guess I'm just not the type to want to look in windows and be so close to some guy at his kitchen table that I can read his newspaper. If people were sitting on their porches in photo #3 then I would be walking past with them just inches away from me--that's not my idea of entertainment, that's my idea of uncomfortable.
To each his own, but I like to have lots of space and greenery and trees to look at. That's what I find entertaining. Trees are not monotonous to me at all.
Hmm. I thought the neighborhoods in #2 and #3 look cozy and possibly friendlier. This might be just how much personal space one is used to. It never occurred to me that could be uncomfortable. I'd feel like if someone inside the house doesn't want to be seen, they'd close their shades. #2 looks not too different from the street in Massachusetts I live on; there's something similar to #3 a few blocks away. Too much space between the buildings and road and I feel it looks too blank as a streetscape.
Picture #1 shows a sidewalk on a four lane highway. I think its placement and landscaping are appropriate to the situation. I do not need to be "entertained" when I walk somewhere; I just need to get from Point "A" to Point "B". If I wanted entertainment, I could use an ipod, but I don't even have one. I don't mind just getting lost in my thoughts.
If walking for pleasure, e.g. just going out to take a walk, I would likely avoid walking along a 4 lane highway, but if it were the fastest way to get where I want to go, I'd have no problem with it.
Interesting points. I guess I find this walk more visually stimulating than you do, but I like looking at the birds and the trees, so the walk doesn't seem monotonous to me (in the same way that a walk in the woods is not monotonous to me). But it's cool if it's not your cup of tea. Different strokes, as they say. Also, I should point out that the sound wall in the first photo doesn't continue for the entire length of the road; it comes and goes. So, you can look at houses on that side of the road, and you can look a lot more buildings on the far side of the road where there's a shopping plaza and townhouses, if looking at buildings is your thing. I just happen to like walking on the side that has a wall.
The important thing to me, though, may be the function of this path--it's not for strolling or looking at scenery, it's used by pedestrians who are walking to destinations. If I used this path strictly for exercise I might be more concerned about variety in scenery, but since I'm using it for more practical purposes and often carrying bags I care more about comfort and safety. I appreciate being away from the zooming cars. I don't worry about getting splashed or slipping on ice in the winter or having to get out of the way of cyclists. It's much more pleasant to walk to a store when you're away from a street like this, IMO.
The trees are the least uninteresting part of the first photo--it's mostly the boring linear features of the sound wall and the zooming-car road that I find most unappealing. I like trees just fine--one of my favorite features of my own neighborhood is that we have abundant street tress--so much that in deep summer, many of our downtown streets appear to be leafy green tunnels with a little light breaking through here and there. So there are also birds, and lots of neighborhood cats, out and about on a typical day. And one of my favorite walks is across the neighborhood to a forest with a large river running through it on the north edge of downtown.
In terms of function vs. fashion, a pedestrian path first and foremost has to be useful--it has to go somewhere people want to go. I have seen plenty of utterly disused pedestrian pathways through beautifully-landscaped parkways. They aren't lacking in the aesthetics department, but they aren't particularly useful as transportation. So, yes, I'd agree that the ability to get somewhere is more important than having the path be beautiful.
However--one way to make a path more useful is to include more destinations. Higher density along a path means more potential uses, and mixed use along that path increases the number of possible trips. Instead of one road that goes from Point A to Point B, a road of the same distance can go to Points A, B, C, D, E and F. This makes the same stretch of road far more useful and functional, and more efficient because it gets more use.
The aesthetics of a useful path provide other benefits. If there are things to delight the senses and interest the walker along the way--trees, landscaping, birds, scenic vistas, street art, kids playing in a playground, etcetera--it makes the path more fun to use. The element of enjoyment promotes other uses--walking is both useful and fun, which reinforces the walking experience. People like to do things that are fun, but they're also busy, so it's very nice if they are also useful. If walking is fun and useful in a neighborhood, people do it more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caladium
I think I'd rather be counted as a person who enjoys looking at trees and birds, rather than as a person who just needs safety.
It's fun to see so many different POVs. I would not personally find it "entertaining" to walk down the sidewalk in photo #3 because it's too close to people's homes.I guess I'm just not the type to want to look in windows and be so close to some guy at his kitchen table that I can read his newspaper. If people were sitting on their porches in photo #3 then I would be walking past with them just inches away from me--that's not my idea of entertainment, that's my idea of uncomfortable.
To each his own, but I like to have lots of space and greenery and trees to look at. That's what I find entertaining. Trees are not monotonous to me at all.
If you look at the house fronts in photo #3, they aren't really at ground level, they are elevated 2-3 feet. This is common in older neighborhoods with minimal setbacks: they have a stoop to raise the ground floor a few feet. This helps preserve that sense of privacy through a subtle change in elevation. The porches also give a couple extra feet of semi-private space to act as a visual barrier, while still helping act as the outer edges of the "room" that is the street. There is traffic on the street, but it's still probably a pretty comfortable walking environment desipte the smaller barrier between the street and the sidewalk, because the street is narrower and the cars are undoubtedly traveling much more slowly than in the first photograph. Yes, in such a neighborhood you are probably more likely to directly encounter the residents of these buildings--they are physically closer to the street, and probably more likely to walk to those stores at the end of the block. But if you're walking on the street, odds are you live nearby, and the people you encounter are your neighbors. When I encounter my neighbors on the street, I say "Hi, how ya doin'?" and wave. It's considered friendly in some cultures. And yeah, if someone doesn't want anyone peering in their windows, they close the curtains.
As someone who does spend quite a bit of time on the porch just kind of watching the neighborhood go by, with the occasional "hi how ya doin'?" to passing neighbors, I can tell you it isn't all that monotonous to me at all--plus, I can also look at the trees and birds on my block, which sounds like it might appeal to you as well.
So I got two people who just need safety and 1 who needs entertainment also.
I didn't see anyone say they needed entertainment. If you are referring to me, I said interesting. I find those are two different words with somewhat different meanings. Your mileage may vary.
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I guess I find this walk more visually stimulating than you do, but I like looking at the birds and the trees, so the walk doesn't seem monotonous to me (in the same way that a walk in the woods is not monotonous to me). But it's cool if it's not your cup of tea. Different strokes, as they say. Also, I should point out that the sound wall in the first photo doesn't continue for the entire length of the road; it comes and goes. So, you can look at houses on that side of the road, and you can look a lot more buildings on the far side of the road where there's a shopping plaza and townhouses, as well as a few houses. I just happen to like walking on the side that has a wall. So there are opportunities to look at buildings if that's your thing.
