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Average can still be not very urban in the US, especially if the average includes everywhere in the US. I guess my perspective is the areas I found look no different from some areas of Long Island I'm familiar with, while the Boston areas look quite different. Those Boston area links (outside of the city limits) are in neighborhoods that are as high or higher than the highest density census tracts of Denver. I'm not denying Denver has decent public transportation and can be a place one could get around without a car. It's just a matter of degree. In those Boston neighborhoods, a car isn't even really helpful for everyday stuff.
I guess it's subjective, my cutoff for what consists of urban living is higher. Which is what the thread was about.
It didn't seem like Nei was trying to call into question how urban Denver is - that is for another thread - it was used a comparison point that there are areas within some cities that are suburban in nature while there are areas outside many cities that are urban in nature. Often, this can be found within a single city (just like in LA or Boston).
Perhaps Nei would have been more well served comparing Brookline with Hyde Park or Roslindale, that way no one would be offended.
Oh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
if we are trying to distinguish between urban and suburban, instead of using urban as the antoynm for rural calling most of the metro "urban living" is a misnomer. No offense to Denver, but most of the metro including the city (as far as I can tell) is low density far from urban living. As you would say, it is what it is, having its own pros and cons depending on your prespective. Urban living to me is high density, convenient to not use a car, often to the point where not using your car can sometimes make thing easier, a short walking distance to many anmetities, and a large amount of pedestrians on the street. I remember you mentioned you lived in Denver that the grocery store and some other stores were quite a far walk and it sounded like it wasn't atypical for a good portion of the city. Here are some streetviews to show the contrast. First "urban" Boston outside the city limits:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Denve...2,9.43,,0,-5.2 (looks like suburbia with maybe smaller than average lots; I can find the same exact thing in not all that urban parts of Long Island except with different housing styles)
While you may disagree with my definition of urban, it should be clear that the "urban" places outside of the Boston are very different in density and feel than much of Denver. Lemme know if I cherrypicked accidentally, I was trying to find an average place that wasn't in or near downtown (since that would be obviously urban). If my views are accurate of Denver this probably means we have very different conceptions when we talk about "cities" (I suspect I'd consider almost all of the Denver views I selected equivalent to suburbia that happens to be within the city limits, except perhpas the last view), and different idea about standards of walkabililty, ease of being without a car, need of parking, etc.
I've never heard anyone anyone in real life (as in a face to face conversation) say these things about suburbs. Most likely, whoever saying this is using hyperbole and not thinking very well. These statements and the arguements they create are very boring and don't interest me, I don't really care whether people say such things. However, I did something similar in the sense of no stores or other commercial buildings close by and mass of houses with little else in between (due to single use). Since I didn't own a car until a couple of years ago, many suburbs may as well have had no stores or commercial buildings.
It's not going to happen. I care more about density and built form (for example, the contrast between those two street views, whether or not either places are in the city limits are irrelevant — Ogre's first paragraph was a good explanation). I like to think of it as a degree of urbanness; those places past a certain limit are suburban in a relative limit. Those even less so are rural.
You know what I'm talking about (usually); I know what you're trying to say. Most of the time it's clear from context. If it isn't ask the poster. Helps if the poster makes it clear; I think I usually do. The point is to better understand each other not argue in circles over definitions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
I never said it wasn't a city. I said it's not urban and not really urban living (given the criteria I listed). Compare the Boston area links with the Denver links.
So were all the Boston area links I posted; the commercial views were all shopping areas in residential districts. They were all even outside the city limits! I avoided downtown on purpose. Downtown areas are almost dense and built up and get lots of visitors, the difference is in the mostly residential areas outside the center city.
Then that area is either in not very urban or an odd spot on the city edge. To me it's classic suburbia not anything urban.
It didn't seem like Nei was trying to call into question how urban Denver is - that is for another thread - it was used a comparison point that there are areas within some cities that are suburban in nature while there are areas outside many cities that are urban in nature. Often, this can be found within a single city (just like in LA or Boston).
Perhaps Nei would have been more well served comparing Brookline with Hyde Park or Roslindale, that way no one would be offended.
No, I was trying to point much of Denver is less urban than Boston from a comparison Katiana made earlier in response to Ogre's comment on Boston:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
I would actually agree with the bold. It is as true for Denver, a supposedly "new" (or at least new-er) city. The city and its burbs are both forms of "urban living".
I didn't mean it to be an attack on Denver, just that a lower density city is not going to offer as much area containing "urban living". Some people think that is a plus instead of a negative. And thought it would be interesting to compare two ciites.
Urban living to me is high density, convenient to not use a car, often to the point where not using your car can sometimes make thing easier, a short walking distance to many anmetities, and a large amount of pedestrians on the street.
Not too much urban living going on in this country, then.
Not too much urban living going on in this country, then.
I would probably agree with that; which is why I sometimes prefer to bring up other countries. Though the part about cars was probably too extreme; I meant more unnecessary or inconvenient for short local trips.
some have. I have. Anything that isn't rural and not urban, which I just defined before with a correction. Though, in the back of my mind, I probably define it as something that doesn't look out of place in Long Island…
Do you agree at least there's a big difference between the Boston area links and the Denver ones?
some have. I have. Anything that isn't rural and not urban, which I just defined before with a correction. Though, in the back of my mind, I probably define it as something that doesn't look out of place in Long Island…
Do you agree at least there's a big difference between the Boston area links and the Denver ones?
I'm no pollyanna here (obvi) but shouldn't a definition define what something IS, not what it is not?
Yes, Denver and Boston look different. That's not surprising. One is much older than the other, and they are in different parts of the country. Denver also includes its airport (~50 sq. mi) in its city limits, so 1/3 of the city is not occupied at all, which brings down its density stats.
I'm no pollyanna here (obvi) but shouldn't a definition define what something IS, not what it is not?
I don't think so. Not X and Y seems complete and logical.
Quote:
Yes, Denver and Boston look different. That's not surprising. One is much older than the other, and they are in different parts of the country. Denver also includes its airport (~50 sq. mi) in its city limits, so 1/3 of the city is not occupied at all, which brings down its density stats.
That's why I prefer weighted density (averaging the density of each census tract weighted by where each person lives) to ignore relatively sparsely occupied areas and reflect where each person lives. Nassau County (western half of Long Island) has a bit higher weighted density than Denver, but obviously Denver has some more urban sections than Nassau since Denver has a downtown and center city neighborhood.
Well Boston is still denser and its commercial streets are more pedestrian oriented and less auto oriented so I'd say Boston provides more "urban living". Not meant as an insult towards Denver…
Not all newer cities are lower density. Vancouver, BC isn't that much and neither is Los Angeles though it's rather autocentric. Much of Boston outer suburbs are much lower density than Denver outer suburbs, but neither provide much in the way of "urban living".
Even that number isn't very representative of Denver. Denver did acquire a large part of rural land that the only development on it is the large airport. The population density would be much higher if you didn't include the land acquired for DIA.
IMO, population density is a poor measure of a city's urban character. Take the small city of Edgewater. Population density is 7,245 people/sq mile. I would say it is hardly more urban in nature that much of Denver.
I think it is fair to say that most cities have neighborhoods that are very urban in nature and others that are suburban in nature.
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Not too much urban living going on in this country, then.
