Exploration Trip to Utah: Looking to escape morally/economically bankrupt Oregon (Salt Lake City: homes, quality of life)

[Fiddlehead]

I agree that the notion that one area's diversity is different than another's. Certainly Europe has a tremendous diversity of cultures, languages and the like. And people in this country are pretty obsessed with race and racial diversity. Although I generally think the assimilation cultural model is the best (no matter where we came from, we must become Americans to truly work together IMO), one of the negatives is the view that anyone from Europe is white and, therefore, the same. I would guess that a community with equal numbers of Norwegian, Jewish, Irish, Scottish, English, Italian, Polish, Finnish, Portuguese, and Czech-American citizens would be viewed by most as less diverse than a community with half Mexican-American and half African-American citizens. And a 90% black school would be diverse, but a 90% white school would not. So, it seems to me like Utah could certainly be diverse, if one gets beyond the racial categories to real ethnic origins and cultures.

[hilgi]

Originally Posted by Fiddlehead

I agree that the notion that one area's diversity is different than another's. Certainly Europe has a tremendous diversity of cultures, languages and the like. And people in this country are pretty obsessed with race and racial diversity. Although I generally think the assimilation cultural model is the best (no matter where we came from, we must become Americans to truly work together IMO), one of the negatives is the view that anyone from Europe is white and, therefore, the same. I would guess that a community with equal numbers of Norwegian, Jewish, Irish, Scottish, English, Italian, Polish, Finnish, Portuguese, and Czech-American citizens would be viewed by most as less diverse than a community with half Mexican-American and half African-American citizens. And a 90% black school would be diverse, but a 90% white school would not. So, it seems to me like Utah could certainly be diverse, if one gets beyond the racial categories to real ethnic origins and cultures.

Interesting take, not PC but I don't like PC. It does seem that diversity is a one way street.

[ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...?]

Alright, so I pretty much have the pronunciation of Utah towns dialed in thanks to all you locals, are you now saying I will have to watch the movie "Fargo" again to be able to converse in certain places...

[Suizo]

Last week we flew into SLC and explored the northern part of Utah. Although the logistics of travelling with two babies sick from playing at Gateway Mall were one of the toughest assignments of our lives, we fulfilled most of our planned itinerary.

We were really shocked by the 'McMansion expansion' everywhere we travelled.

We really enjoyed meeting all the wonderful folks of Utah, and were rather suprised by all the abundant ethnic diversity; if you listen to this forum, there isn't enough diversity in Utah (perhaps not enough liberals?).

We enjoyed the Alpine, Logan Valley, Huntsville and Midway-Heber Valley the best. Unfortunately, we didn't have time to see the Sanpete Valley.

The weather was perfect, but it was nice to see snow on the Wasatch before we left.

We found the perfect little horse property in Wellsville and are sold on the Logan area. However, the Midway-Heber Valley is a close second.

Would like to visit the Sanpete Valley and Cedar City before we decide.

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by Suizo

We were really shocked by the 'McMansion expansion' everywhere we travelled.

You'd really be shocked if you knew what this place looked like 30 years ago.

Originally Posted by Suizo

Would like to visit the Sanpete Valley and Cedar City before we decide.

I have a feeling you'll like Sanpete Valley. But, it is poised for the same 'McMansion Expansion'--it's growing fast. You may get a few good years out of it, though. You'll find it less urban (at this point) than Logan, and less 'Park City-ish' than Heber. Still, it's hard to beat Logan and Heber for beauty (at least in Utah).

[Fiddlehead]

Hi Suizo,

Glad your trip went well. I am waiting to hear on a job at USU in Logan.

Interesting to hear your shock at the sprawl and McMansions and to reconcile that with your disdain for Oregon. We left Colorado in 1998, dismayed by the sprawl on the Front Range, and we have been very pleasantly surprised by the more compact development in Oregon. That is what comes along with progressive planning policies. Unregulated growth usually gets barfy.

So, your observations seem to illustrate the trade offs in world views. I don't mean to moralize. I am a pretty typical academic liberal types, but a father too and a fairly socially conservative person by nature, and I admit that I have some of the same thoughts as you about the desire to avoid urban, socially progressive places with crime and sleaze in favor of smaller, more socially conservative places. Yet, it seems the desire to be "left alone" and unregulated or guided has larger scale consequences that affect the environment and ultimately everyone's quality of life.

[dcisive]

Yeah, I was here 30 years ago (1978-1981) and indeed it was another world. NO crime, NO graffiti or gangs, NO rush hour and everything south of Sandy was....well there basically wasn't anything south of Sandy LOL. Gotta love that growth ;-(

[ChrisC]

Originally Posted by dcisive

Yeah, I was here 30 years ago (1978-1981) and indeed it was another world. NO crime, NO graffiti or gangs, NO rush hour and everything south of Sandy was....well there basically wasn't anything south of Sandy LOL. Gotta love that growth ;-(

Sounds like you are the only "ally" (in not being happy with the growth around here) that I have on the Utah forum.

My solution is to move to a place that hasn't experienced the boom (and if I've done my homework well, will not experience a boom anytime soon). Until then, I can be vaguely content "looking to tomorrow" and living in the boomtown, while briefly and occasionally complaining about Utah's overpopulation and summer heat here on CD forums.

I do try to be pleasant if possible, though, because it's not all bad in Utah. There are some things I'll miss. Hey, who wouldn't miss the greatest snow on earth? (yes, they do get snow in North Dakota... but it's not as good as ours) But the claustrophobia, pathetic traffic, and extended excessive heat overshadows the good (for me; YMMV). There are actually some areas that I would consider moving to within Utah (you can bet they are away from the Wasatch Front!), but frankly the cost of land, even out in the sticks, is more than I'm willing to pay. There are just better bargains in many other parts of the US right now. Plus I have a huge disdain for the fields of "McMansions." And no matter where you go in Utah, you can be sure they will invade sooner or later. (to be more specific: although I prefer a more rural or small town setting, I don't hate subdivisions, per se; but I do hate the hotel-sized barns that pass for homes in modern subdivisions. In a subdivision built before, say 1970, I'd feel comfortable--even better, the 1940's. But being within what is considered the norm in subdivisions now, I feel like a Lilliputian in a world of Gullivers. No thanks)

Mmmmm-kay, my overly-verbose, highly-charged ramblings are over for today. Rock on.

[dcisive]

It looks that way. Apparently Hilgi and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum, but for some good reasons. He's got kids, I don't, He want's growth at all costs, I don't, He thinks this place is better then sliced bread after moving from California to here, I don't, He's living on a toxic waste dump, I'm well, just past that. I get tired of all the parunts ranting about their kids not getting enough money from taxes to pay for their educations. I am in a very sparse camp that feels if you have the kids, YOU should pay for them, but NOT expect ALL to deal with the financial burden, and that INCLUDES educating them. That might slow the population growth a tad if they got THAT reality check, or not. Then there's the new Hispanic population growth spurt for those not even here legally, that clog the emergency rooms (free medical care for them). It's created a completely different approach. My wife had to go to one the other day and they offered a 25% discount to pay NOW instead of later. Gee I wonder why?

[hilgi]

Originally Posted by dcisive

It looks that way. Apparently Hilgi and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum, but for some good reasons. He's got kids, I don't, He want's growth at all costs, I don't, He thinks this place is better then sliced bread after moving from California to here, I don't, He's living on a toxic waste dump, I'm well, just past that. I get tired of all the parunts ranting about their kids not getting enough money from taxes to pay for their educations. I am in a very sparse camp that feels if you have the kids, YOU should pay for them, but NOT expect ALL to deal with the financial burden, and that INCLUDES educating them. That might slow the population growth a tad if they got THAT reality check, or not. Then there's the new Hispanic population growth spurt for those not even here legally, that clog the emergency rooms (free medical care for them). It's created a completely different approach. My wife had to go to one the other day and they offered a 25% discount to pay NOW instead of later. Gee I wonder why?

I think you make a lot of assumptions about what I want. I don't want growth at all costs, I want smart growth without infringing on our rights. Coming from CA yas, this is paradise 1.8 million people in the area where CA has 18 million, good trade off for me. I don't buy into the waste dump stuff, the world is a waste dump according to many. It is used as a way to stop development, they do it in CA and everywhere, I am just a skeptic. I would bet I would have died in a wreck commuting in CA over living in a waste dump here.

Privatize ALL schools, give us back our taxes.