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So, just to be clear-you would like to complain about what is happening to you and your family in Utah County, but do not want anyone to respond in any way, shape or form to defend where they live, to explain that they have not had anything like that happen to them, or to express that they are very sorry you have had those experiences?
Do I understand correctly?
What kind of a response are you actually seeking? You will get some people that will commiserate with what you are saying because they have gone/are going through it too. You are also going to get some that will sympathize, but are unable to relate to your situation (me). You will also get some that will defend Utah to the death. For myself, I like living here but have stated many times that it isn't perfect. The people here aren't perfect. Many situations aren't perfect.
I AM sorry that it happened to you. That statement validates that I believe you when you stated what has happened. When I said that it hasn't happened to me, that validates that although you have had troubles in Utah County, where I live it has not. Hopefully that would give you hope that you are living in a miserable spot and there are more friendly areas in Utah.
Any other comments are necessary. Some may just read what you have posted may assume that's all Utah is about. Why is it when other's post their own stories about it not happening to them, you assume that we discount what you are saying? We can believe you but also state our experiences too.
there are other reasons that you might be noticing stuff like this too.
i don't doubt that you've met rude mormons–i've certainly met my fair share. but in my experience, half of the time when you think a stranger has snubbed you, or gone out of their way to be rude, you are wrong. half of the time, they really honestly didn't notice that you were waving to them, or they thought that they waved back, or what you perceived as a grimace was really a goofball smile, etc, etc.
when people come on the forum and start talking about how everyone in their neighborhood ignores/disdains/mocks/gossips about you, etc, then yes, i start to question that person's rational mindset. especially once they confirm that some of the people that are supposedly so much against them don't even know them.
i've heard it from so many people on the net, this forum included, "i walk down the street and mormons just scowl at me. they all hate me." if you think i'm kidding, ask any one of the other forum regulars here. every two or three months another one comes in claiming something along those lines. again, i'm not talking about the normal, rational-minded need to rant; i'm talking about the "everyone-hates-me" mentality.
it becomes hard to separate those that are obviously deluded, self-centered, and uber-negative, with those that honestly have a problem and are seeking some sort of refuge, even if it ends up just being from their own personal fears.
mormons don't have any special awareness that lets them instantaneously determine who is one of them and who isn't. honestly, most of the time, we don't even care. i'll buy my groceries from a buddhist, an atheist, an evangelical, or a wiccan just as fast as i will from a mormon.
the reason that i mention this is that you seem to be falling into that trap.
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the women in the cars intentionally turn their heads away and the men just look straight on...I guarantee you that there is no way they could miss me or my husband, we are right there. It is the same thing no matter where I go, I can walk towards a woman and in any other civilized place I have lived, when two women are walking towards each other (nothing else going on, no children to distract) I always make eye contact and give a slight smile or some non-verbal form of acknowledgement of existence when you are walking into each others path. Every single time it has happened the women walk by without even looking at me, they look straight ahead or down at the floor and pretend like I don't exist, I see the lines of their garments from behind and I know...But if I am walking towards a woman who has her hair messed up, wearing sweats and a tank top, she immediately glances towards me and sometimes there is a smile, sometimes there is a frown, but she at least realizes that I exist.
this is why i said earlier that i question the mindset behind this kind of post. i'm not trying to be rude; i am just using the same logical points to which i apply my own associations with others. i find it hard to believe that every rude person you meet is mormon, and that every mormon you meet is rude. if i were in the mindset where i saw that (among mormons, catholics, democrats, republicans, etc), i would chalk it up to hurt feelings and emotional response. there is nothing inherently wrong with that, but i would expect myself to be able to see the truth of the situation through the pain that i was feeling.
i have been in situations where this has been necessary; i've lived in plenty of places, inside and out of this country, where mormons/americans/white people/utahns/marines/military personnel in general/christians/and any other label that someone could throw at me were not welcome or tolerated very well. even there, i could usually tell who was actually against me, and who didn't care, or was positive.
i am not trying to discount your experiences. i have no doubt, as i've said before, that you have had bad experiences with ignorant mormons. but i do doubt highly that the above claims of everyone ignoring you, refusing to wave, and other acts of idiocy. i would bet that it is more likely that a select few act like that, and that you perceive it to be the majority. further, i would bet that not all of them are mormon; assumptions are easy to make, especially when you don't know someone but think you do (think you are seeing garment lines, etc).
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I would prefer not to hear that it isn't a LDS thing, because I know it is.
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Let me reiterate, not all mormons behave this way, it is not an LDS wide behavior,
those don't sound contradictory to you? which one is the one that you honestly believe? i'd like to think it is the later, especially as that one was the last one you spoke of, but it does seem kind of like you believe the former. if that's the case, it is certainly your right to believe what you want, but you would never get over your issues then, because they would be *your* issues, irregardless of how nice everyone around is or isn't.
that's it for me. i got out what i wanted to get out. i am assuming that you are reasonable enough to see that this is generally the truth. whether it applies to you or not, you are the only one on this board that can really say for sure. but if it just so happens that you really are completely surrounded by that many jerks, fate must hate you. i'd get out of that neighborhood. i've found friendlier neighbors in iraq.
aaron out.
PS- i will probably have to post a clarification or two since i am both spacecased and blunderingly foot-in-mouth ignorant in my own right sometimes. remember that i am not trying to belittle you or deny your experiences; i am just saying that a positive outlook and giving others the benefit of the doubt will often make your problems disappear before any damage control is needed.
Well, if this makes you feel any better, I am LDS, came from a warm friendly cul-de-sac neighborhood in Utah where everyone knew each other. BBQs, volleyball games, kids playing in backyards, etc. We moved to the Midwest. People sometimes look at us like we have appendages (kids-lots of them) where there aren't supposed to be any. Our neighbors basically ignore us. l will continue to say hi to the Catholic kids down the street even though they have never even made eye contact with me or acknowledged my greeting. When we first moved here, I went to meet our daughter's flute teacher who lives just up the street. I said to her daughter, "Hi! We'll be your neighbors." She looked at me like I was a freak. She has never uttered a word to us since except when she wanted us to sub her newspaper route. When walking in the mornings I often pass groups of Catholic kids walking to the nearby Catholic school together. They don't know me-certainly don't know what religion I am, but they never say hello back-unless I have my dog with me who doesn't know any better and greets them cheerfully. Then they talk to her, not me.
I've had lots of years to think about this and I've come to the conclusion that most people try to surround themselves with people who understand them and who have something in common- who speak the same "language" and who "get" all the nuances associated with whatever makes up their lives. It's what people do naturally. We live right next to a park. I'll look out my window and see large groups of Chinese people from the neighborhood there together in the evenings. My three yr old, not knowing any different ran right out and made fast friends with a little girl. Now hey play out there almost every evening of the summer. There she is, the only caucasion child among a dozen or so Chinese kids-speaking Chinese to each other! Doesn't faze her at all. There is a Somali "household" down on the corner. I don't know who all lives there- lots of people always coming and going. But they are all most definitely Somali. I've never seen them interacting with anyone but other Somalis. I have a friend who is Evangelical Christian and lives in New Jersey. She lives in a mostly Catholic neighborhood and says her kids have no neighborhood friends. Her kids now go to a Christian school and have friends from school and who are on their swim teams. Gravitating to your own kind is a natural human thing people do.
Maybe try reversing the situation in your mind. Say a Mormon family moves into a 95% Catholic neighborhood. Would you expect that everyone would warm up to the Mormons immediately and include them? If the Catholic kids have had little contact with kids of other religions, wouldn't they be slightly wary of the Mormon kids? Utah County has such a high density of LDS families that those children and probably those adults, too, haven't had much experience getting to know people of other religions. They are clutzy and probably insecure about it. My guess is that parents haven't taught their children about diversity and how to be friends with kids who don't attend their church because they just haven't had the need to. As you know now, being a Mormon isn't just a Sunday thing. It's lots of mid-week activities and actually it's an every minute thing where we're taught to be aware of following a certain code right and wrong. "Clear as mud" to you I'm sure. But I can assure you- shunning your Catholic neighbor isn't something we're taught to do.
This is what I think Mormons ARE guilty of...not RSVPing for parties! Ugh! I had to learn to be consistent with this when I moved out of Utah. No one RSVPed in Utah. And the only kids who didn't show up and didn't RSVP to my own daughter's party a year ago were the Mormon ones (all Utah transplants). Yes it's rude!
And I think Mormons are guilty of perhaps being more self centered simply because there is such an emphasis on doing right and making right choices. it might make us more prone to looking down our noses at, or at best feeling uncomfortable with things like swearing, smoking, drinking (even light social drinking). Those are things that still bug us here where we live and I hope to never get used to people around me doing that. I know there are very good people who smoke and drink (some of my own relatives), but I'm very uncomfortable around it.
And I think Mormons from Utah County especially are guilty of globbing together and not knowing how to be friends with non-members. So any efforts at friendship might come off really awkward-ie the dad telling his son we need to try to get this family into the church. Duh! That makes me cringe with embarrassment. BUT I know where that sentiment comes from. It really does come from a place of love and concern for your family- believe it or not. It may seem really obnoxious to non-members, but if you were to familiarize yourself with LDS doctrine, you might better understand that seemingly odd social behavior.
I truely think there should be a culture handbook for people not of the LDS church to study up on when they move to an area with high density LDS families. LDS people are not inherantly bad, mean, exclusive individuals. But ours is a lifestyle that requires so much of our time and mental energy that we become pretty focused on it. And this is key- the connections we make with other people in our wards at church are often emotional and intimate ones (not physical except for hugging- we're a very huggy people) We often share deep spiritual testimony, convictions and feelings. We teach and learn from each other. That bonds us together in a way that can be pretty intense. We can't really be blamed for that because it is so central to our way of worship. But when we get out during the week we forget that others not of our faith might not understand what we're about. So it comes off rude and exclusive when we cling so closely (socially and emotionally) together with our LDS peers.
If I were you, I would be persistent in your friendliness and acceptance of all the folks around you. Give it more time. Invite more kids or families over individually rather than in a whole crowd so you can get to know them better and so they can learn firsthand that you're not so different from them. Utah Mormons need this exposure in the worst way!! Never give up on smiling. Look people warmly in the eye and they will respond positively. I'm not saying you don't do these things already. I'm just spouting off a few things that usually work in "making friends and influencing people" - Dale Carnegie style.
Best of luck in wading though this.
-A fellow "duck out of water"
P.S. One point I won't concede on is the smoking. Give it up! It's not good for your health or your social life- no matter what religion you are.
Lmejh and Flyinlow, thanks for the support, as soon as our lease is up we are moving closer to Salt Lake City, as I said my husband works in Sandy, West Jordan, Fort Union and South Jordan and never has any problems, people of every religion are just normal civilized people who pretty much accept everyone for who and what they are, some are rude and some aren't, but he has never experienced anything like this neighborhood. He has many LDS that work with him that tell us we landed on the wrong side of the Point of the Mountain...I love Utah and there is so much to do here, it is so cool going shopping all the way up at Fort Union, nobody cares what religion you are, what kind of clothes you wear, what kind of car you drive, how many kids you have, what color your skin is...everyone just seems so NORMAL!
Kaytidid and Stycotl. Please take the time to read my posts again, I knew this was the kind of comments that I would receive and made an attempt to answer all of these comments in my original post. As far as I am concerned it has been asked and answered, and if I am quoted please don't take it out of context.
Carlymac, thank you for validating what I am going through.
I am sorry you feel offended by my post to you. I actually mentioned that although I have never had it happen, I am really sorry that it has happened to you. Never once did I say you were making it up or were doing something wrong.
I truely think there should be a culture handbook for people not of the LDS church to study up on when they move to an area with high density LDS families.
i was thinking yesterday that we ought to put together a utah cultural guide here on the forum. if we do it well enough, it might get stickied, and then we can refer new people to it instead of always going over the same stuff every time a new person comes in. obviously they would still have questions and we would have clarifications, but we would get half of the confusion over with before the conversation starts.
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Kaytidid and Stycotl. Please take the time to read my posts again, I knew this was the kind of comments that I would receive and made an attempt to answer all of these comments in my original post. As far as I am concerned it has been asked and answered, and if I am quoted please don't take it out of context.
i understand that you didn't want any opposing viewpoints, but that doesn't seem entirely fair, healthy, or constructive. when you go to a debate, it is assumed that you will hear both sides of an argument. if a scientific paper is to be peer reviewed, it will have to pass both positive and negative criticism before it is declared valid. when making claims about utah, with the goal of offering future residents honest information, it is important to give them both sides of the story.
i am not criticizing your intelligence or your emotional intelligence. far from it. of all of the discouraged people that post here about this topic, you seem to still be in control of yourself. that is certainly uncommon among those that come here for this purpose. but it is impossible to remain objective in an emotional state. you know that as well as i.
your request that only your viewpoint and that of those that agree with you is not objective. it is not for the good of those that you claim need to know the truth. it is for the good of your own emotional turmoil. if that is the case, and if that had been clarified from the first post, then our reactions would be somewhat different.
starting a post with, "i just need to vent..." is much different than, "all of those poor people that are thinking of moving to utah need to know the truth...", and will trigger a different response from those of us that live here, and have lived here, and have different viewpoints.
lastly, i am not sure where you think that i took your quotes out of context. feel free to point it out.
again, not a single one of us has attemted to discredit your experiences. we are not saying that there aren't stupid mormons out there. but this is not "a mormon thing" as you claimed earlier. it is a human thing. to claim otherwise is to do a disservice not only to the population that you are slighting, but to those that want to learn about this state.
My family totally understands where you are coming from. We are non-LDS, my brother, mother, and I are also not Caucasian. We lived in a very wealthy and predominantly LDS and Caucasian neighborhood. Both my parents were professors at the UofU, having graduated from UCLA, are business owners.
It was very hard to make friends and even acquaintances in this neighborhood, growing up we always had to travel to Sugar house to attend activities and socialize because our predominantly LDS neighbors would not allow us to interact. My mother has been told that she is not welcomed at neighborhood parties(not LDS parties) because she is not LDS, also been told she couldn't attend the junior high or elementrary parent meetings but could donate $, she had to set up meetings with the principal and teachers regarding volunteering "science," language classes she would like to set up, my brothers only two friends are not LDS (he is a very well-mannered and nice kid), the neighbors would always meet and discuss new fencing, parking, clean up day, and not even discuss this with my dad but to tell him he needs to donate to help the neighborhood, I was used to being told I wasn't invited to something because I wasn't LDS, I had a couple LDS friends who were very nice to me but I could never go to their house or when their family LDS friends show up, I would have to leave, etc...
I understand what you are going through, it's hard, I hope your kids grow up without too much hurt from these situations.
Understand there are pockets of Salt Lake County that are like this also.
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I am sorry that you had to go through that...my children are very loving and receptive kids, they understand that it doesn't have anything to do with who they are and they are so good about trying not to take it personal. I work very hard not to allow the behavior they are suffering here to color their perception of the LDS religion as a whole because we understand that it is our specific neighborhood that has extremist LDS. From what I have heard these pockets exist throughout Utah and non-lds just need to be aware of it so that they go into the situation with their eyes wide open...it is my hope of hopes that people reading this post (catholic, LDS, baptist, Muslim, etc...) will look at their own neighborhoods and see whether they are intentionally excluding those of different beliefs and maybe realize how much it hurts the perception of the religion they are portraying.
Again, thank you for sharing your story.
Cycle
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