Vancouver/Camas area first impressions (Salmon Creek, Washougal: real estate, 2015, apartments)
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I've been asking a lot of questions on this board for the past few months and you all have been very kind in providing good answers. My wife and I just got back from a 5-day visit to the area where she did a series of interviews and I mostly explored the area with an eye to relocation while I wasn't driving her around to interviews. We are thinking of relocating our family next year back to the NW and looking hard at the Vancouver area. I thought I'd give you are impressions which were generally positive.
Vancouver Downtown: This was a pleasant surprise. We did the farmers market on Sunday and some walking around. More restaurants and shopping than I realized and the new (newish) public library is definitely world class. Best kids section I have ever seen anywhere. I went to college in Portland back in the 80s and I don't remember it being anything like this but then I don't think I never really took the time to look around. As a stand alone downtown area it is nicer than Salem where my parents live.
Camas: There is the small older town of Camas with a gentrified downtown and older modest housing stock surrounded by sprawling newer subdivisions to the north and west. The top rated schools and greater sense of place seem to be the big draw. It is an actual town with an identity compared to many of the other similar suburban areas. It is also hillier than much of the rest of neighboring east Vancouver which produces expensive view lots and smaller lot sizes in general compared to flatter areas. Houses along the lake shore and on the tops of ridges with the best views are all well out of our price range but there are lots of decent options if one doesn't want/need shoreline or views. We like to get out to walk and bike and not all areas are equally good for pedestrian access. Most neighborhoods do have sidewalks but the access roads into many neighborhoods are narrow with no sidewalk or shoulder which would make it difficult to get in and out without a car. So one must be aware of the geography and access issues when choosing a new neighborhood in Camas if one doesn't want to have to use a car for everything. Cell phone coverage (AT&T) was also very poor on the east side of Camas in the hilly areas east of the lake. There were places where we had no signal. On the west side it was rock solid. If you depend on cell phones for business this could be an issue. Perhaps Verizon is better. But in general I think we liked the Camas area best for the sense of community and schools and this would probably be our first area to look if we do decide to relocate.
East Vancouver: We did some driving around in the Cascade Park/Fishers Landing area and the areas around Union HS and the Costco at Mill Plain and 192nd. Not sure what that area is called. This seemed like a very typical suburban sprawl area quite similar to much of the suburbs north of Dallas with the same restaurants and shops and strip malls and a similar mix of apartments and middle class housing. This area seemed a perfectly nice place to live but doesn't have the same sense of place as Camas. The housing stock is also smaller and cheaper than in Camas with the exception of a few upscale subdivisions off 192 near the Costco. Union HS looks very nice from the outside. They made it look like a mini community college. The area seems to sprawl endlessly to the north all the way to Hockinson. The advantage to this area is that it is cheaper and closer to services, shopping, and Portland than say Camas. But it is flatter and less green and scenic. But if you want an actual yard and a little more space your money will go farther here than in Camas.
Felida/Salmon Creek: We spent some time driving around this area looking at housing and the location of shopping districts. Most of the new growth seems to be pushing far to the west well away from the established shopping districts. Generally speaking it seemed like one subdivision after another with no real sense of THERE there. Doesn't seem to be any central business area which makes sense as this area seems to be mostly suburban sprawl rather than original small towns that have grown. The neighborhoods also seemed to change more from block to block. One sees older cheaper aging housing on one block next to new more upscale pockets on the next block as it the area seems to have filled in rather randomly. Lots of perfectly nice neighborhoods here but there isn't any particular draw that would pull us here if we were not working nearby.
Hockinson: Drove out here just to see the area. Nice upscale looking new High School. It is basically a 1-stop sign town with a small market and a couple of churches surrounded by farms and low density sprawl. A lot of rolling farmland is being carved up into multi-acre estate lots so this is the place to move if you want a McMansion sitting in a 5-10 acre field surrounded by $100,000 worth of white vinyl horse fencing. Most of the subdivisions and houses are on private gated roads or at the end of long gated lanes. We lived in this kind of area in Central Texas and didn't really like the hassle of always dealing with gates every time your kids friends come to visit or you have people over. But if you want to live behind gates on your own little field, Hockinson is your place. I'm guessing this area is popular because the urban growth boundaries in Oregon have basically made this sort of exurban sprawl illegal over there. But we've done this kind of living in Texas and with 3 kids prefer to be closer to all the activities. I used to have to do a TON of driving between soccer, swimming, gymnastics, music lessons, shopping, and work when we lived this far out in the country and don't want to do it again at least until the kids are all out of the house. Hockinson looks like the kind of place where one will be putting in a lot of car hours if one has several active kids.
Traffic. I also paid close attention to traffic issues. Yes, the bridges, especially I-5 looked to be very congested, especially during the weekday commute time. But within Vancouver itself and the surrounding towns I didn't detect any meaningful traffic headaches during weekdays or weekends. I kept a close eye on the google mapping app at different times of the day and week and didn't see any meaningful surface street congestion Even driving down Mill Plain was no big deal during the rush hour. And the ETA times from one part of Vancouver to another didn't really change much at different times of the day unless one was routing via I-5 during the rush hour. So if one is living and working on the Vancouver side and not having to cross the river then traffic seems a non-issue. The distances from one side of Vancouver to the other are pretty big which would be a consideration of where one would want to live and work. But there didn't seem to be any major traffic concerns. I'm from Oregon but have spent the past 10 years in Texas and have done enough driving around Dallas, Houston, and Austin to know what real traffic headaches look like Vancouver doesn't have them at all unless you are trying to commute to Portland.
Nice summary. The area you describe around the Costco at 192nd is actually Camas. At least it is Camas on the East side. I am not sure if the entire west side of 192nd is Vancouver.
And I agree, it has a very suburban, or exurban feel.
Nice summary. The area you describe around the Costco at 192nd is actually Camas. At least it is Camas on the East side. I am not sure if the entire west side of 192nd is Vancouver.
And I agree, it has a very suburban, or exurban feel.
Apparently the school boundaries don't follow the city boundaries then. Along 192nd from 20th St up to 1st/Lake St the Evergreen District covers all the neighborhoods on the east side of 192nd as well. It is only south of 20th street that 192nd becomes the boundary between the Camas and Evergreen districts. So the street addresses may be Camas but the kids go to Evergreen schools (Shahala Middle School and Union HS). Basically the school district boundary between Evergreen and Camas does not follow a north-south line but is a zig-zag line the runs to the northeast.
Same thing happens all the time here in Texas where school district boundaries were established decades ago and since then cities and suburbs and expanded in random fashion to where a street address might be inside the city limits of one city but the postal zip code puts it in a neighboring city and the school district boundary might put it into a 3rd city. All very confusing to outsiders.
It is confusing. Most of the area near 192nd is Evergreen not Camas schools (the new massive Green Mountsin development will also be Evergreen) and there are actually a few neighborhoods in Washougal that attend Camas schools. Just make sure you check on the property records site when looking at houses, even within Camas the schools listed on the real estate listings are often wrong.
I think most of your observations are spot on. One thing on cell coverage. I'm on the west side of Camas so not a big deal (I also have att) but I've heard that Verizon is better overall around here. Best of luck!
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AT&T works OK if you are within 'line-of-sight' to I-5.
AT&T is not a carrier for rural areas of the western USA. (Our Verizon is very spotty ever since they banned analog signals). Works better on cloudy days (which is what we have most of the year anyway) Can't afford to waste the short summer on the phone, so no cell service and no internet gives you more summer time outdoors!
Having ONLY dial-up for internet really stinks being just 16 miles from PDX / 1 million people in Portland / Vancouver. (no towers / dishes allowed in CGNSA). I will have to quit my great international job this year due to no / poor internet in 'semi' rural WA. That's OK... I have had 43 yrs at this employer (minus a 5 yr previous early adios that included a stint of free college). Just hoping for another 'buy-out' to free up my job for those new folks moving to town!
I think OP must have had a realtor show them Hockinson... while there are a few gated communities (only 2 that I know of, and ONE is in Camas)... there are plenty of 'normal' / friendly neighborhoods... (non-gated 'texans' '(where I also have a non-gated farm)). You don't have to keep up with the Jones' once you get to WA. We play on a pretty level 'social' field.
Interesting to hear the perspective of newcomers (suburbia feeling of 192nd)... 192nd is pretty 'fresh' (3 yrs?)... Mill Plain and 164th was a 2 lane w/4way stop when we arrived in 1980 (before I-205 was born), after fleeing Colorado's Californication. (taxed off our ranch near Estes Park). Can't stop 'progress' (?) Now there are 9 stoplights on my way to work (vs. ZERO). Time to retire to a 'stoplight free' county (next door / Skamania... one blinking red light in Carson). @ $14,400/ yr... my WA taxes are a tad higher than my Colorado taxes were...2016 WA tax values for us are 18% higher yet If I were old enough to get SS... 100% of my SS income would not cover my WA Property tax bill. (my TX taxes are MUCH more reasonable, but not everywhere in TX can say that!)
There are a lot of housing and school options in all regions of SW WA and Clark County. With active kids.. it was REAL tough to beat our fruit farm located in the Minnehaha area of Vancouver metro. 5 min to anywhere important,,, (including Clark College). The same 20 min to Airport / work. We were next door to WSU (Poor Farm) and to Hazel Dell Park, so very quiet / private. Only the noise of distant I-5, and the higher altitude portion of landing pattern of PDX.
There are plenty of options for housing and schooling. A 5 day survey trip is a bonus and was more than the time I got to accept my job, load up a farm onto some beater trucks, and move 1200 miles (while 8 months pregnant). We just packed up and came. The rest is history. It has been a journey (to be continued (?)) maybe... maybe not Poof, we can all be gone in an instant!. (wildfire?) that is very possible in our dense urban interface of SW WA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yacolt_Burn
It traveled 30 miles (48 km) in 36 hours and destroyed 238,920 acres (967 km²) of timber, about 12 billion board feet (28,000,000 m³), in Clark, Cowlitz and Skamania counties.
(This 4 day burn was greater / faster than any subsequent PNW fire) excluding AK, which is a tragedy for 2015 fire season.
(dry / windy) Sept is coming
(hint:... don't get a house in the 'urban interface'... or... Get defensible Space!) Hockinson and much of Camas was GONE in the Yacolt burn...http://swfire.com/live_in_woods/image024.jpg
Last edited by StealthRabbit; 08-18-2015 at 03:31 AM..
AT&T works OK if you are within 'line-of-sight' to I-5.
AT&T is not a carrier for rural areas of the western USA. (Our Verizon is very spotty ever since they banned analog signals). Works better on cloudy days (which is what we have most of the year anyway) Can't afford to waste the short summer on the phone, so no cell service and no internet gives you more summer time outdoors!
Having ONLY dial-up for internet really stinks being just 16 miles from PDX / 1 million people in Portland / Vancouver. (no towers / dishes allowed in CGNSA). I will have to quit my great international job this year due to no / poor internet in 'semi' rural WA. That's OK... I have had 43 yrs at this employer (minus a 5 yr previous early adios that included a stint of free college). Just hoping for another 'buy-out' to free up my job for those new folks moving to town!
I think OP must have had a realtor show them Hockinson... while there are a few gated communities (only 2 that I know of, and ONE is in Camas)... there are plenty of 'normal' / friendly neighborhoods... (non-gated 'texans' '(where I also have a non-gated farm)). You don't have to keep up with the Jones' once you get to WA. We play on a pretty level 'social' field.
Interesting to hear the perspective of newcomers (suburbia feeling of 192nd)... 192nd is pretty 'fresh' (3 yrs?)... Mill Plain and 164th was a 2 lane w/4way stop when we arrived in 1980 (before I-205 was born), after fleeing Colorado's Californication. (taxed off our ranch near Estes Park). Can't stop 'progress' (?) Now there are 9 stoplights on my way to work (vs. ZERO). Time to retire to a 'stoplight free' county (next door / Skamania... one blinking red light in Carson). @ $14,400/ yr... my WA taxes are a tad higher than my Colorado taxes were...2016 WA tax values for us are 18% higher yet If I were old enough to get SS... 100% of my SS income would not cover my WA Property tax bill. (my TX taxes are MUCH more reasonable, but not everywhere in TX can say that!)
There are a lot of housing and school options in all regions of SW WA and Clark County. With active kids.. it was REAL tough to beat our fruit farm located in the Minnehaha area of Vancouver metro. 5 min to anywhere important,,, (including Clark College). The same 20 min to Airport / work. We were next door to WSU (Poor Farm) and to Hazel Dell Park, so very quiet / private. Only the noise of distant I-5, and the higher altitude portion of landing pattern of PDX.
There are plenty of options for housing and schooling. A 5 day survey trip is a bonus and was more than the time I got to accept my job, load up a farm onto some beater trucks, and move 1200 miles (while 8 months pregnant). We just packed up and came. The rest is history. It has been a journey (to be continued (?)) maybe... maybe not Poof, we can all be gone in an instant!. (wildfire?) that is very possible in our dense urban interface of SW WA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yacolt_Burn
It traveled 30 miles (48 km) in 36 hours and destroyed 238,920 acres (967 km²) of timber, about 12 billion board feet (28,000,000 m³), in Clark, Cowlitz and Skamania counties.
(This 4 day burn was greater / faster than any subsequent PNW fire) excluding AK, which is a tragedy for 2015 fire season.
(dry / windy) Sept is coming
(hint:... don't get a house in the 'urban interface'... or... Get defensible Space!) Hockinson and much of Camas was GONE in the Yacolt burn...http://swfire.com/live_in_woods/image024.jpg
It has also been my experience that Verizon is preferable in the west. Last summer I biked down the Pacific Coast from Astoria to San Francisco and there were all kinds of coverage gaps with AT&T even within a dozen miles of San Francisco in the hills of Marin. Apparently it is the same in SW Washington. We are grandfathered into AT&T with unlimited data plans on our phones and I currently get a 25% discount through my employer so I'll be loathe to switch if becomes necessary. But I will say there is zero chance we will be moving some place so rural that copper wired phone service with dial-up is required. That's just not going to happen.
As for Hockinson. No realtor was involved. I just had an afternoon to kill while my wife did interviews so I drove out there and then followed the Zillow and Realtor.com apps around to look at the listings and I kept running into private roads and gated neighborhoods. But then I was trying to track down $500k + listings. I was just looking at the neighborhoods in the hills east of the HS and single stop sign in town. Couldn't get to half the listings because they were behind gates. But it also only took me a few minutes to decide that the area was more rural than what we are looking for, at least with 3 kids. I could happily live the completely rural lifestyle when the kids are out of the house but I learned the hard way that I'd rather not spend most of my daylight hours after school and weekends driving them back into town for every activity.
192nd is basically exactly what new sprawl looks like everywhere in Texas. It is identical to Cedar Park (north of Austin) Katy (west of Houston) or all the new burbs north of Dallas and Fort Worth except that there is 20x more of it up there. Same stores, same style of subdivisions, same street design. Other than the occasional view of Mt. Hood one might as well be in Frisco Texas. Well, except for the heat. Any Texan moving to Vancouver will feel right at home. Unless that is the sort of thing you are trying to escape.
I had to giggle at your journey of following Zillow to look at houses. We did that so many times when we were first looking at the area. So many times were led down the wrong path! Have you considered Ridgefield? In your price range there are many homes available, some with acreage. Property is selling very fast here. We have lived here 4 months and are very happy with the area. The schools are highly rated, on the smaller side, but they offer a lot. Our children are grown, but it was important to us to live near good schools. As a retired educator, I try to keep up with the happenings in the school district. Depending on where in Vancouver your wife works, it could be an easy commute, or a 30 minute commute. Good luck in your hunt!
I had to think about the OP's comments for a good long while before responding. I'm not sure how well someone can effectively define so many areas and neighborhoods in a quick 5-day tour, but as my mother-in-law often says, 'de gustibus,' to each his own. I spent a lot more time than that before settling on Felida.
The OP liked Camas because it has an 'actual' downtown and sense of identity. Maybe having a big, stinky paper mill looming over a small, old business core provides some sense of identity, but it didn't appeal much to me. It also seemed to be a long drive to get to Vancouver, downtown Portland, I-5, and more shopping and infrastructure options.
On the other hand, the OP said there is no sense of there THERE in the Felida/Salmon Creek area. I guess it depends on your sense of there. According to City Data, the Felida neighborhood ranks in the top 10 percent for personal income in the entire state. There are nice parks, trails, hospitals, shopping; 10 minutes or less to downtown Vancouver, 15 to 20 minutes to downtown Portland. Yes, it is mostly suburban, but some of us like living in suburbia.
And Felida/Salmon Creek certainly has more going for it than the vast stretches of cheaper suburban tract housing and plastic strip malls of east Vancouver, in my opinion. De gustibus.
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Can't afford to waste the short summer on the phone, so no cell service and no internet gives you more summer time outdoors! 
If I were old enough to get SS... 100% of my SS income would not cover my WA Property tax bill. (my TX taxes are MUCH more reasonable, but not everywhere in TX can say that!)
Poof, we can all be gone in an instant!. (wildfire?) that is very possible in our dense urban interface of SW WA. 
