Where does Ventura town fire defense stop? Hills? (Oxnard, Santa Paula: for sale, how much)

[sponger42]

I notice some lots for sale up in the hills above downtown. They are part of neighborhoods, but all back on the hillside with no roads above them. At what point to fire crews "give up" defense of houses? Is the first line of houses considered an acceptable loss in the face of a major fire driven by Santa Annas? Is everything on the hillside fair game? Can you plant your backyard with "fire-resistant greenery" (or just stones) and leave open easements for trucks to get into your back yard to encourage crews to use your house as a base from which to begin containment in the case of a major blaze?

I know an isolated canyon home is pretty much dead meat in case of fire, but what about these neighborhood fringes? If you have a city hydrant does that mean fire crews will make a stand at your house (except in the most extreme scenario), or will they use the first 1-2 streets as a firebreak and fall back to defend just the denser valley floor and city center?

[katie45]

The Ventura Fire Department will give you the information you seek.

[A/Ox4]

Originally Posted by sponger42

I notice some lots for sale up in the hills above downtown. They are part of neighborhoods, but all back on the hillside with no roads above them. At what point to fire crews "give up" defense of houses? Is the first line of houses considered an acceptable loss in the face of a major fire driven by Santa Annas? Is everything on the hillside fair game? Can you plant your backyard with "fire-resistant greenery" (or just stones) and leave open easements for trucks to get into your back yard to encourage crews to use your house as a base from which to begin containment in the case of a major blaze?

I know an isolated canyon home is pretty much dead meat in case of fire, but what about these neighborhood fringes? If you have a city hydrant does that mean fire crews will make a stand at your house (except in the most extreme scenario), or will they use the first 1-2 streets as a firebreak and fall back to defend just the denser valley floor and city center?

To understand this you need to have an understanding of how fire depts do risk analysis. There is actually a lot more to being a firefighter than wet stuff on hot stuff.

First lets talk about jurisdiction. Assuming your property is inside city limits, you will be covered by Ventura City Fire Dept (VFD). However, you may, depending on where you are, and available resources, get a response from Ventura County Fire Dept (VNC), or even the United States Forest Service (USFS/LPF). This is what we call a 'Mutual Aid Agreement.' That is to say, that all of the departments in this agreement have agreed to provide coverage, when available, to other areas otherwise outside their response area when there is an unusual tax on resources. I have seen Fillmore Fire in Ventura, Oxnard is Ventura, Ventura is Santa Paula... etc, etc.

Then we have something called State Responsibility Area. Many of these properties that you are talking about fall under this section. This is an area that the state has a responsibility for rather than local fire depts. Because it is expensive for the state to overlap their own coverage with local fire depts, most countries opt to take a check every year in lieu of the state providing coverage for these areas, and then these areas become the responsibility of the local fire depts.

Now all of this factors into normal everyday type stuff, like medical aids or traffic accidents. However if we have a large brush fire a different rule set applies. It becomes much, MUCH more complicated than just "where is the fire" because often it will cross from one jurisdiction to another. I will skip all of that because we dont have time to learn about incident command here today, and its even above me. Many many years of training go into learning how to manage these large incidents.

Let me get back on topic a little here. No fire dept, regardless of where you are, will sacrifice property. Sometimes property is lost, but not when there is something to be done. Go back and look at recent fires. For example the recent Spring fire. Of 28,000 acres burned, only 15 homes were damaged. 15. Now look at other types of natural disasters with home damage reaching well into the 100's.

When fighting a structure fire, priorities are
1) Preservation of life
2) Containment
3) Preservation of property

However, when fighting a wildland fire, there is a small change. Life remains the primary objective, but preservation of property moves above containment.

Believe it or not, wildfires are rarely extinguished, rather managed. The burning of vegetation has numerous benefits to the ecosystem, and fire depts know that, so they let it burn; within reason. One of the first things that an incident commander will do is create a structure protection group and plan. They will literally post fire engines in neighborhoods like military guards against the fire.

No property is considered an "acceptable loss."

You mentioned the presence of fire hydrants. The presence or absence of hydrants doesnt dictate a response from the fire dept. In the absence of a hydrant, no worries. The fire department brings their own. Most engines carry 500-1500 gallons of water as it is. There are also units called Water Tenders, which serve the sole purpose of providing water to areas without hydrants. These units carry upwards of 5000 gallons. Even with hydrants and water tenders, the water supply is not endless. That is why water is actually not the primary weapon against wildfires. Think about how much water would be needed to put out a 28,000 acre fire Fire departments rely on backfires and fire breaks to snuff out a wild fire.

We have big toys to get us to places with no roads. In fact we have crews who specialize in it.
The primary off road assault will be performed by Type 3 engines, which are large, short wheelbase 4x4 fire engines designed to go off road. In more rugged terrain hand crews and bulldozers will take the front line.

Hand crews are tasked with moving ahead of the fire and clearing brush, creating a fire line. That is a line that the fire cannot burn through because there is no fuel. Bulldozers do the same thing. They will move along and create large fire breaks of nothing but dirt, like a barrier to block off the fire. This will buy some time, but down wind the fire can still throw embers and jump the fire line.

Often, one of the tasks of the structure protection groups is to set backfires. These teams will walk around the rear of the at risk properties with road flares and start small fires. These fires are set to burn off all of the fuel before the main fire gets to the at risk homes so the main fire cannot get up to the homes. These fires are very easily controlled, and monitored.

Protecting homes is one of the highest priorities for any fire dept, and any loss is a tragedy and no 'sacrifices' will be made.

Its a very complicated topic, and there is a lot more to it than most people realize. I hope I have answered your questions, and if you have any more please feel free to ask.

Also, my statements do not speak for any particular fire dept, and each dept has their own policies that vary slightly, but all operate under the same objectives.

[sponger42]

Thanks, Ox4. Very informative. What's your opinion on the north side of Lincoln Drive? https://maps.google.com/maps?q=ventu...alifornia&z=19

Say you've got a big fire burning it's way down the hills pushed by a strong northerly wind with high heat and very low humidity. Would you expect that the line of houses backing on the gulley could be saved? To a layman, it looks like there's no good way to build a fireline in the hills to the north. To me, it seems the houses on the upslope of the gully on the north side of the road would BE the firebreak. Is it rolling the dice to put a house there, in your opinion?

[SOON2BNSURPRISE]

Also in the area we have a weed abatement plan. Brush on open land dries out in this area after the rains are gone. Land owners near residential areas are required to cut down the weeds that can grow very large if allowed to do so.

[A/Ox4]

Originally Posted by sponger42

Is it rolling the dice to put a house there, in your opinion?

No. Like I said before, the fire dept does not approach the incident with the attitude of "what can be sacrificed."

In fact a residential street would be a terrible fire break. They are wide enough, but there is too much fuel on either side. The fire would grow too intense when burning the homes and likely jump the road.

In this particular scenario they would probably attempt a fire break on the hill and then set backfires up to the homes.

Of course it is always possible that if the fire started too close to the homes to establish a perimeter before some were lost. But again, this is why we have structure protection groups and plans; to get a team in to protect homes before hand crews can come in with shovels and torches.

[Mashi]

I'd be more worried about snakes than wildfires.