[Logs and Dogs]

[looking4home]

I suppose it was proximity to large urban areas and wealtheir states that doomed Vermont. It was an easy target, so to speak, for those who became disgruntled with city life, and were attracted by a simpler, rural way of life. However, Vermont was already on the flatlander radar long before the hippies. Stowe was a popular ski resort for most of the 20th century, and Vermont was a popular vacation destination for many in the Northeast. I suppose the hippies just saw something else it had to offer. Vermont was ripe for the picking, as they say. Post-WW II, the small farms began to be sold off. The children of generational farmers no longer wanted to follow in their parents' footsteps. Farming was seen as dirty, back-breaking hardwork for meager profits, and farmers were viewed as unsophisticated rubes by their own kids. they wanted off the farm, and so there was no choice for many farmers but to sell.

[BickleTravis]

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

They largely came because it was about the only Eastern state they'd have any freedom in. The rest did their best to drive them out.

The Nearings are partly to blame though I'm surprised so many came to VT because of them when they left the state themselves and said the people here were too self-reliant and individualistic to them (they being marxists obviously who didn't like that).

dude. Live free or die. Libertarian paradise, plus Loudon and Laconia.

[BickleTravis]

Originally Posted by GypsySoul22

I think you should just try to move, Travis.

I don't know why people put up with 'unhappy' situations. It's not going to get better so maybe you should up stakes and just find a better, cheaper place to live.

You sound relatively young. Why not go to Boston or the suburbs or NYC or some other town where there are more jobs? There are also many midsized cities great for single guys and gals in their early years.

Unless you and the other long time VTers plan to run out the 'flatlanders' with pitchforks and reclaim the land for Ethan Allen or someone, why not just go and get on with your life where you can work with your degree at something other than food service?

I actually moved back to VT from Boston. Loved the city, knew no one.
Thats why I'm sort of stuck. I'm looking for entry level jobs, and you need to be local to get those (i.e. I can't apply for CA jobs while living in VT).
If I knew someone or had family somewhere else, I'd be gone already.

As for your "pitchforks" statement (which was obviously a joke), I have NO problem with "flatlanders" per se. That's where me and Arctichomesteader differ. My mom is an immigrant. I can't really get too provincial without feeling pretty hypocritical. If you come here hoping to work and live like a normal person... more power to you.

What I have a problem with are the hordes of people who come here with to retire at 25 or 30. Millions in the bank, no need to work, and never have to live in VT on VT wages. They're really screwing up the housing market here. I've never seen an area more overpriced than Burlington, VT. I have friends in the Old North End who pay MORE for apartments than people I worked with in Boston who lived 1/4 mile from Boston College. There is absolutely no way to justify that. It's nuts.

Obviously, there are more factors than "flatlanders" (not a term anyone who knows me has ever or will ever hear me use) that are driving the cost of housing in VT. Property taxes are a factor. Limited housing stock (and therefore an artificially low housing supply) is another. But, as this report points out, 80% of VT jobs don't have a median salary that will cover the median price of a house in the state, yet someone is buying these and more expensive houses. To deny that the mid-Atlantic crowd (yeah, I said. At least change your plates from yellow to green if you want to be a VT'er) isn't driving up the cost of housing here is indefensible.

[Logs and Dogs]

BT - Fair points on the wages and prices.

I will say even among native Vters there appear to be lots of "haves" and "havenots" based on the talk on this forum you would think the only potential jobs anyone is working VTright now are paying $8/hr....but I'll tell you what, in the NEK, I see so many $35K+ rigs driving around with folks I know are native to the area, all I know is they aren't paying for their familes and their rigs with an $8/hr job.

Is there little for "career based" work now, yes I'm sure, do nurses and medical prefessionals get paid a fraction of what they could earn in CT etc. probably. But someone is making money locally.........unfortunately there are just as many who are not.

I was just flipping through the real estate rag I picked up and it seems you can get a lot of house for $175K....problem is, you'd be driving many miles to get to a job that can pay for it. Homes in Chitty skew the whole thing as most high wage jobs are located there but the house prices reflect that. I just don't understand that area. I'll stick to the NEK.

[68vette]

Originally Posted by Logs and Dogs

BT - Fair points on the wages and prices.
....but I'll tell you what, in the NEK, I see so many $35K+ rigs driving around with folks I know are native to the area, all I know is they aren't paying for their familes and their rigs with an $8/hr job.
I was just flipping through the real estate rag I picked up and it seems you can get a lot of house for $175K....

The simple math is easy to figure out. A 175,000 dollar home is going to cost about $1000/month a $35,000 will give you at least a $500/month payment if not more. Add property taxes, utilities, fuel, etc and the monthly costs are over $2000 if not over $3000. You can make 24,000-35,000 per year(household income) living pay check to pay check. Two people making $8/hr will put the yearly income at a little over $33,000. If one person made $10/hr you see how things get better. I think the OPs point and VHFAs point is housing costs are unsustainable at the current pace.

[Logs and Dogs]

68 - Trust me I get the #'s...........I was just making an observation.

My best guess is many of the younger (<45 years old) folks are going paycheck to paycheck.

Most of my friends in VT are contractors or tradesmen/do everything types. They are making ends meet, however there is always some stress when they don't know where the next job is coming from. That being said, a few of them have more work than they can actually handle.

Two of my friends own restaurants in the NEK and they are thriving, honestly thriving.

It all depends on how you play the hand your dealt.

That being said, the Real Estate Mkt is unsustainable in many places with VT being a pretty clear example. I do agree that to a certain extent it is exacerbated by the second home market as that is money not earned in VT propping up home prices. Meanwhile Vermont wage earners are faced with that “propped up market”……..that is a tough uphill battle.

[68vette]

LandD I know what you are saying as well. I don't think It's just young people who are paycheck to paycheck. People who are older most likely have a lower mortgage payment if they bought years ago, but income has not keep up with inflation(as the VHFA report shows) and taxes, household expenses continue to increase (as they do everywhere). My wife and I are almost living paycheck to paycheck. Our income puts us in about the top 15% for Vermont, but what we get hit in taxes is insane(Fed and state). We pay more in taxes than what many Vermonters are making in a year. We were doing much better financially when we were making only $20/hr.
I don't think it's just the second homeowners who are keeping the prices of homes inflated. A big blame can be put on Act 250. If anyone has ever read the act, in the first few sentences it states that it was put into place to regulate and control enviromental impact as well as growth. It is all about supply and demand. The Burlington rental market is a perfect example of this. There are more renters than apartments, so the price can become inflated. The same works with homes. If the state makes it difficult to build, then there becomes more buyers than homes.

[momnh]

Housing pricing is driven by basic economics - supply and demand. There aren't a lot of new builds (supply issue) and apparently there is plenty of people buying, which keeps prices up (demand issue). If people weren't buying, prices would drop. I know that a lot of the demand in places like the MRV and Grand Isle Cty are driven by second home buyers. But here in Chittenden County, the demand comes from full-timers. And there are enough of them making enough money to be able to drive the prices to where they are and sustain the pricing level we're at now. I think the issue is that Chitt county has become gentrified - more higher earners, better educated than in the old days, which is creating the big gap between the have's and have not's.

[j_jimerino]

Yeah, I don't think the situation is unsustainable. The supply is constrained by state policies and building costs are higher because of this as well so it doesn't matter how little the populace makes, since no houses are being built and people apparently continue to come here the prices will stay high.

First you look at the 250K raised ranch house from the 1970s and go "Man, that is overpriced!" Then you look at a piece of land (at least 100K, usually more like 150K) and the cost to install a septic system that conforms with the state laws (Often around 60K for a mound system that is required in many areas) and suddenly you only have 50K left to build a house. After that, you understand why that 1970s house costs so much. And you understand why developers don't build "affordable housing". It's because they can't.