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Unfortunately with all the discussion about health ins on the national level, little of it focused on how to stop the spiraling premiums (price fixing is alive and well in the health ins industry) and the AMA and other big lobbying orgs certainly don't want to change the lucrative system for doctors that rewards doing more and more tests and procedures.
Our health insurance system does need an overhaul. I agree with you on this, but your claim of physicians and the AMA not wanting to change a lucratve system is 100% way off base. That is way off from why so many procedures get ordered. The fact, and the only fact so many procedures get ordered is because of our lawsuit happy society. Doctors practice what is termed "defencive medicine." This is one reason why our healthcare is so expensive. Doctors need to order many unnecessary tests and procedures to protect themselves from lawsuits. Stop the lawsuits, and watch cost (added tests and procedures) decline.
Some people here like the idea of moving to Vermont for the "Universal Healthcare" bill that just passed. HA! Do yourself a favor and look at what happened in Maine when they tried that with Dirigo - went BANKRUPT!!! All the people who used to pay for their insurance jumped off it and let the "other" people (ie: taxpayers) fund their healthcare, and overloaded the sytem. That's why even Maine's 2 Senators voted against Obamacare - they knew first-hand what would happen.
Vermont USED to be great - over a decade ago. Today, forget it - Native Vermonters have been totally displaced by the excessively high taxes and ensuing bad business climate. Who populates VT now? The rich Limousine Libs from NYC and Boston - they started showing up a decade ago, demaded the same kind of services (powerful Teacher's Unions, sewers, public water etc), and taxes skyrocketed.
taxes - 3.5% for low-income is excessive compared to most states! Property taxes in VT are very high - almost as bad as NY. And there are state and LOCAL sales taxes - every town is different. Utility costs are extremely high, but the rest of the Northeast is just as bad (can't imagine what will happen when VT Yankee goes down).
Welfare State - yes, Maine and VT do have a problem here - it's just less "visible" than in a state like NY. A large number of Vermonters have "Seasonal" jobs and collect unemployment the rest of the year, and a LOT of people are on Food Stamps. It wasn't always this way - it used to be a hardworking rural state, but, like I said, the "Natives" have been priced out. The few remaining have learned to game the system, and the handful of others are paying to carry the rest. If it wasn't for the tourists, Vermont would have gone bankrupt a decade ago - as soon as they started bilking the hardworking Vermonters in the name of "fairness."
Yes, it's pretty, yes the hardworking Vermonters make the best cheese and Maple Syrup and best handcrafted furniture. But, if you plan to live within ANY of the cities, it is very expensive. If you plan to live in a little hovel in the middle of nowhere, maybe, but do you REALLY think that is practical? It is currently April 27 - there is still snow on the ground; Killington is closing May 1 - not because of a lack of snow, but because of no tourists - only local pass-holders who don't spend any money are actually skiing.
I really think people should reconsider retiring to Vermont. Especially if you are not from the Northeast. The winters are brutal! Oh yeah, you NEED a 4 wheel drive if you're going to live in the boonies (and it helps in the cities too during / after a snowstorm).
Oh yeah, the cost of food in Vermont and NY is twice the price of the Southeast, so to the person from New Mexico, you really do have to take that cost into account. Actually, the cost of everything in the Northeast is a LOT higher than the rest of the country. Now, if you are from the NYC Metro area, Vermont may seem like a bargain - but the services pale in comparison, so you have to weigh the costs / benefits on that one. For example, everything is a lot farther apart in VT than in over-populated NYC metro, so you will be doing a LOT more driving = more gas and more wear-and-tear on your truck (seriously, if you can only have one vehicle it really should be a truck /SUV - a Subaru at worst). And the nearest hospital - a major concern if you are older, well, it could be over an hour away depending where you settle down.
I love Vermont, I love REAL Vermonters, I make sure to support NATIVE Vermonters and buy their goods. I would NEVER move to Vermont! My brother lives in Vermont -ON Killington. He is a Ski Bum! For him, the cost is worth it. He works on Killington as Ski Patrol, skis for free. He has another job in a high-end ski shop. Works two jobs a day, early in the morning 'til midnight. 2 days off. After paying rent and food he has NO money. He comes down to NY or CT in the summer to make money - no jobs in VT.
I live in the Northern Virginia area outside of Washington, DC and it certainly isn't a cake walk either. We pay less property taxes....but we pay plenty in personal property taxes. Gas is a little cheaper here at $4...but considering it could take 1 -2 hours to go 25 miles...which means more maintenance on my car because it just sits there in stop and go traffic.... Utilities in Vermont are expensive but I pay $400 a month to heat my townhouse here in Virginia (keeping the temp at 62) during our mild winters. It runs about the same to cool it in the summer. Since my husband got sick, I am looking at taking on a second job. Right now, my mornings start at 3am and I get home around 3 - 4pm. With a second job and traffic....I'll be lucky to get home at 10pm if the job comes through and I'll be working every weekend as well. That is some quality of life but I'm making more money right? And it's cheaper to live here right? If you like traffic, if you like others being just downright rude, if you love 100 degree summers, if you like the smell of dead animals on the sides of the road, if you love to sit in traffic several hours a day, and if you'd like to pay possibly a little bit less in taxes a year - than THIS is your place! Oh - I forgot....though we are not referred to as the welfare state....our state deficit is higher than Vermont....any AP programs for kids are being phased out....because we have illegal aliens everywhere and their children need ESL because they don't speak english. They qualify for all government assistance and free medical, free lunches at school, and every assistance you can possibly think of.
I love it when Vermonters talk about the brutal winters and that others just wouldn't be able to handle it...you can go ahead and have our 90+ summer days with high humidity...not just a week....not just a month...but several months! In fact, we started that a couple of weeks ago! Yay for us!
The grass is always greener on the other side but for some reason Vermont is the one state where folks consistently talk about how hard it is.... I think it can be hard everywhere - just not in Vermont.
I don't really understand the topic of this thread. Florida becoming a worse option for retirement would only make Vermont look better for retirement if there weren't also 48 other states or that Vermont was already competing for the best retirement spot with Florida.
Some people here like the idea of moving to Vermont for the "Universal Healthcare" bill that just passed. HA! Do yourself a favor and look at what happened in Maine when they tried that with Dirigo - went BANKRUPT!!! All the people who used to pay for their insurance jumped off it and let the "other" people (ie: taxpayers) fund their healthcare, and overloaded the sytem. That's why even Maine's 2 Senators voted against Obamacare - they knew first-hand what would happen.
Vermont USED to be great - over a decade ago.
With all the $$ factors you state, there are a few considerations that you haven't discussed. Many people are tired of the hustle and bustle, traffic congestion, houses being so close you can watch your neighbor blink, the positive difference of raising unspoiled, polite children, the friendliness of people, the sincere thankfulness when you volunteer without cliques and power hungry people. I could keep going, but you're missing the little things that people might be looking for in retirement or lifestyle versus cost being the only factor.
Daughter and son live in VT and they are paying a lot less taxes than we did in NJ for a lot more land. They love living in VT and wouldn't consider anywhere else, even though both have traveled extensively. Yes the winters are tough, but that's a price many are willing to pay rather than deal with heat and humidity.
I'm a newcomer to this web site and have found it interesting. As a matter of fact, my first post was on the MA board asking about relocating from VT to Western MA. But a lot of that had to do with family concerns rather than with dissatisfaction about VT (although there are a few of those.)
Here's my story:
- I retired from the military in 1996. My wife and I remained in MD (from which I retired from the military) for about 8 - 9 more years. I worked for a few companies there and my wife continued with the job she had had for a while.
- Both of us were originally from Southern New England (CT/RI/MA at different times of our lives.) We always wanted to return to NE to settle down for good.
- One of my military tours was in DownEast Maine; that gave us a good refresher on NE winters and it wasn't actually a turn-off. The isolation of the location was, but we still loved being in this quadrant of the country. (This was before returning to MD where we spent an additional 13 years.)
- One of our daughters and her family got relocated to Burlington about 10-11 years ago. We made a number of trips to BURL to visit them and really liked it 0both BURL and VT in general). We even spent a month one summer in VT to give us a chance to scope it out and we decided we liked it.
- We eventually decided that if we were ever going to leave MD we had to do it before we died. (By this time I had been retired from my second career for about 2 years and my wife was ready to quit working. We were both a bit below the normal retirement age.)
- We bought a place in Addison County (not too far from Vergennes) so we would be close enough to our daughter and her family to see them regularly but not too close to see them all the time. We paid cash for our house which was a bit smaller than the one we sold in MD. Addison County is fairly rural but has decent proximity to BURL and also to Middlebury (which is also in Addison County.) Partially as a consequence of the rural location, our lot is much bigger than anything I've ever had before. Our neighbors are not real close.
- I got involved in volunteer activities, the Legion, the Church, etc. and manage to keep reasonably busy.
- After a year or so, my daughter and her family relocated from VT due to job issues. Fortunately, they are in MA as is my other daughter. So, we are about 4 hours from each of them.
- There are many things we love about VT - outdoor activities, laid back way of life, nice restaurants, beautiful scenery, lively arts scene, Lake Champlain, proximity to 3 great state parks.
- There are other things that we don't love and are increasingly finding reasons to at least consider a move:
-- high property taxes. We knew this coming in. But we are finding the taxes are going up every year and are now higher than our house in MD which had a higher value and was in an area which offered greater services.
-- high costs of everything. When we travel to MA we normally stock up on groceries and other things in either MA or coming through NH. In both states the prices tend to be lower; in NH there is no state sales tax.
-- poor roads. At first the dirt/gravel roads seem charming but after a while they get old. Even the paved roads are in great need of repair in many places and are tough on your tires and car.
-- politics. I'm a pretty middle-of-the road guy and could either be happy as a classic old-school New England liberal Republican or a slightly conservative Democrat. The politics in VT are a bit too much left of center for me. Added to that, there seems to be an anti-big business point of view which, at times, I understand but which, for the most part, seems to hurt the state.
I haven't mentioned the state income tax. It's actually not as burdensome as I would have expected but it still ain't cheap. And I forgot to mention that when it comes to property taxes, a good number of the population pays less than what they normally would due to income tests. I actually got a rebate the second year I was here because my income was a bit lower than normal for a variety of strange reasons. But now that I am drawing full pension + SS for my wife and me we will always pay the full property tax rate. I'm not totally sure how I feel about the income test for property tax because a lot of people have "off the books" income and therefore get away with something.
I'm starting to ramble. If there are any specific questions from prospective VT retirees I will be happy to answer them.
With all the $$ factors you state, there are a few considerations that you haven't discussed. Many people are tired of the hustle and bustle, traffic congestion, houses being so close you can watch your neighbor blink, the positive difference of raising unspoiled, polite children, the friendliness of people, the sincere thankfulness when you volunteer without cliques and power hungry people. I could keep going, but you're missing the little things that people might be looking for in retirement or lifestyle versus cost being the only factor.
Daughter and son live in VT and they are paying a lot less taxes than we did in NJ for a lot more land. They love living in VT and wouldn't consider anywhere else, even though both have traveled extensively. Yes the winters are tough, but that's a price many are willing to pay rather than deal with heat and humidity.
Your point is well taken. Vermont is a great place to live if you can afford to live here. The point of the origional post is about retirement in the state of Vemont. Vermont is considered one of the worst states to retire in because of the high tax burden. The Tax Foundation, several retirement publications as well as investment companies such as Fidelity have all published data on states that are good and bad to retire to. One of the big factors people forget about and pay little attention to is our tax system now and what will have to happen in the future. Vermont is now the oldest (average age is over 40 years old) state in the nation. Right now there is little incentive to keep the young people in Vermont. If the population continues to age, Vermont will get to a point were few if anyone will qualify for tax breaks based on income. This can happen within twenty years at our current pace. Our state government has tried to address this issue for years now, but little has changed. The financial issues we are running into now will be small in comparison.
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Cost versus peace and quiet
