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From what I could see, DG has lots of things people *think* they need, and their equation could not work unless they were extracting MORE from the community than they were supplying. (This is also true of Shaw's and the rest of them…).
FYI, in case you don't already know it, Shaw's is part of Supervalu, the 3rd largest retail food company in the U.S. The CEO is a former Walmart executive.
"things that make everyday life liveable" = gatorade knockoffs and "Chinese crap for the holidays"???
I've been away from the US for a number of years, and I remember Halloween as a cool DIY holiday. Now it rivals Christmas in the amount of stuff you "have to" buy ready-made to decorate. This sort of thing does not "make life liveable"; it poisons the planet and makes us poorer for having it bought it even if that were not the case.
I walked into the Dollar General or Family Dollar (I do not even know which, as there are two of these places in Randolph) and I walked right out without buying anything, since there was NOTHING there that I wanted or needed. Nothing! I'm not a total Luddite and I shop at the Shaw's and the chain hardware stores and Belmain's, a sort of five-and-dime. From what I could see, DG has lots of things people *think* they need, and their equation could not work unless they were extracting MORE from the community than they were supplying. (This is also true of Shaw's and the rest of them…).
Then don't shop there. It's that simple. If DG does well in your community, I'm sure you will appreciate the tax revenue flowing into your community. Chain stores aren't evil in and of themselves......they have simply responded to a society who largely places value and selection over service and extreme high quality.
Again, if people don't want to shop at Supervalu, DG etc. feel free to drive all over the place and pay more for whatever you need to make your life go around, it's a free economy, vote with your dollars.
FYI, in case you don't already know it, Shaw's is part of Supervalu, the 3rd largest retail food company in the U.S. The CEO is a former Walmart executive.
Paul, I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me. I find less and less that I want to buy at Shaw's as well, frankly.
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you will appreciate the tax revenue flowing into your community
Logs, The reason I wrote my comment was to point out that that's not the way it works. More money exits the community than could ever be made up for by tax revenues and min.wage salaries combined. The tax revenue argument is a red herring.
With what you yourself called "Chinese crap for the holidays"… well, is it some unknowable chicken/egg scenario? We really, really want this stuff and need DG to provide it? Or is it that ubiquitous DGs saturate our environment with it, causing people to feel they need it? I used Halloween as a perfect example of a "need" for pre-made decorative crap that didn't exist even five or ten years ago. In the 1980s, a "need" was filled by the new product range of red/green plastic Christmas decoration and package wrap storage and organizers. Now I see (at the Belmains) that we need orange/black plastic Halloween decoration storage and organizers. That this is regarded as normal is certainly evil and has become a sort of societal psychosis, imo. YMMV.
Last edited by ladelfina; 10-16-2012 at 06:40 AM..
Everyone is entitled to their own opinoin. No one forces people to buy things they don't want and need. Everyone is accountable for their own spending and actions. Just like everyone is accountable for the way they eat, it isn't someone else's responsibility to keep them from eating burgers all day.
I have no problem with cheap holiday decorations, I just don't buy them, therefore I vote with my $.
As for the tax revenue, your point is valid, the revenue from the store leaves the area. If DG or any other chain doesn't provide people with what they want, no money changes hands, it really is pretty simple. Again, everyone is accountable for their actions and spending, no one makes them buy things, they make that choice. Corporations aren't evil for providing goods, they just take advantage of demand.
If DG or any other chain doesn't provide people with what they want, no money changes hands, it really is pretty simple. Again, everyone is accountable for their actions and spending, no one makes them buy things, they make that choice. Corporations aren't evil for providing goods, they just take advantage of demand.
I would disagree. Having spent years fighting this stuff in another state, a lot of unethical stuff goes on behind the scenes to get a strip Mall store on a piece of rural land. Even if no one buys anything, which likely wont happen, the damage is done. Another piece of pristine land is trashed for trashy retail-- that most importantly has left the eternal legacy of a commercial zoning variance. Just because people with lots of money bought zoning to suit their purposes, that doesn't make it morally or ethically right. It is not our God given duty to wreck every square inch of the earth for a corporation or exploit a natural resource.
I would disagree. Having spent years fighting this stuff in another state, a lot of unethical stuff goes on behind the scenes to get a strip Mall store on a piece of rural land. Even if no one buys anything, which likely wont happen, the damage is done. Another piece of pristine land is trashed for trashy retail-- that most importantly has left the eternal legacy of a commercial zoning variance. Just because people with lots of money bought zoning to suit their purposes, that doesn't make it morally or ethically right. It is not our God given duty to wreck every square inch of the earth for a corporation or exploit a natural resource.
As a guy that spends every waking moment he can in the woods, I agree that I hate seeing land and farms whacked for any reason....that being said....DG isn't going on a farm....I believe they proposed a downtown site.
Again, I have no dog in this fight, I just enjoy the discussion when it comes to the internal conflict that is the Vermont mindset.
In one breath.....no chain stores, no commercial zoning, bad, evil, go away.
Next breath, there are no jobs, cost of living too high etc.
It is interesting to observe......
Just for the sake of discussion, if DG entered into an agreement to buy 30 acres of an old 300 acre farmstead to build their store it sounds like you would be even more against it. What would you propose a better use of that 30acres would be? I'm just curious.
Last edited by Logs and Dogs; 10-16-2012 at 06:36 PM..
I would disagree. Having spent years fighting this stuff in another state, a lot of unethical stuff goes on behind the scenes to get a strip Mall store on a piece of rural land. Even if no one buys anything, which likely wont happen, the damage is done. Another piece of pristine land is trashed for trashy retail-- that most importantly has left the eternal legacy of a commercial zoning variance. Just because people with lots of money bought zoning to suit their purposes, that doesn't make it morally or ethically right. It is not our God given duty to wreck every square inch of the earth for a corporation or exploit a natural resource.
I think the issue should be with the real estate developer (who is most likely a state resident). Most retailers lease their stores. If a new store is built, it's to the specks they desire. There are more people who are responsible than just the retailer (whichever company it may be).
The same was said about Williston several years ago. Taft Corners was all farmland when it was developed. Taft Corners Associates Inc. developed the area, not the stores themselves. Wal-Mart was the big evil store that came in and was killing the mom and pop stores. The mom and pop store did well and continue to do so and on top of that, the Williston Wal-Mart is the third highest grossing Wal-Mart in the country. For store no one wants, they sure do great business. The people who complain are the people who can afford to shop wherever they want. The average income earner needs the cheaper option so they can survive.
I couldn't agree more. Our VT town has two, located in strip malls that are less than 1/2 mile apart. They are no more ugly than the other stores --- an auto-parts place, a tanning salon, a tae-kwon do studio, Big Lots, pizza shop, etc. And, they do a brisk business b/c locals want what they sell.
Yours sounds like a fairly large town in that it has a number of businesses. Is it rural, suburban, urban?
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Some of the people on this board don't seem to understand that whether you work at a mom and pop or a chain retail store the pay is basically the same --- not a livable wage --- and the chain might be better equipped to offer health insurance and other benefits. I agree that it's better to have a dollar store than an empty store in terms of tax revenue and jobs.
In a small community, there is only X amount of available jobs. Bringing in a new employer might temporarily boost employment, but when the dust settles, if one or more businesses are not able to compete, they are going to be laying off employees in an effort to save their bottom line.
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Vermont is not a museum. Sometimes you need practical stores as well as artisan cheese shops, maple outlets, and pottery studios.
Vermont is not a museum nor is it a cookie cutter environment given to massive sprawl and big box commercialization. It is a number of unique villages, towns and cities. What works well in your community might not work in another. People settle in areas for many reasons -- whether it be the 24 hour life in the city with everything you need, a cookie cutter suburb full of strip malls and big box stores, a small village with minimal amenities, or out in the woods in a yurt. I took 10 years to learn about the areas I was considering, narrowed down my choices and worked from there. I wanted a place I could eventually retire to which was safe, not far from a hospital, was quiet, and had a beautiful appearance which would continue to attract tourists to support the inns, businesses and artisans. I didn't want strip malls, chain/box stores and fast food places. I wasn't looking for 'Museum Vermont' -- towns like Weston, Grafton, Woodstock which are either owned or heavily controlled by corporations. I think we can both agree that those are idealized Vermont, and not real Vermont.
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Plus, dollar stores can help cut down on carbon emissions. I don't shop there on a regular basis, but there have been many times when my kids have come home from school needing stuff to build a school project --- glitter, popcicle sticks, clay, etc.--- and the dollar store saves me an hour's drive to Burlington.
You're on the internet, posting on a forum -- why do you have to drive to a Dollar Store when DG has a very substantial online presence? If you are serious about reducing carbon emissions, online shopping is a great start. Driving a few less miles to buy cheap stuff which is made in China where regulations are lax and their CO2 emissions are the largest on the planet, which will find it's way to the landfill, does not sound 'green' to me.
As a guy that spends every waking moment he can in the woods, I agree that I hate seeing land and farms whacked for any reason....that being said....DG isn't going on a farm....I believe they proposed a downtown site.
Again, I have no dog in this fight, I just enjoy the discussion when it comes to the internal conflict that is the Vermont mindset.
In one breath.....no chain stores, no commercial zoning, bad, evil, go away.
Next breath, there are no jobs, cost of living too high etc.
It is interesting to observe......
Fair enough.
When you purchased your home, were there certain things about your soon-to-be new town which attracted you to it? Features that you liked? Did other communities you bypassed have things you didn't like which made you look elsewhere? I deliberately stayed away from areas with a heavy industrial presence, which had fast food chains in favor of a small community with more local businesses, some industrial, some manufacturing and a healthy tourism-based economy.
I am not anti-commercial zoning. I am very much for proper planning, a decent economy and maintaining aesthetics. Had I known 9 years ago that a DG was going to be built in town, I wouldn't have bought here. The second homeowners I know in the area feel much the same way. If fewer second homeowners come into the area and are not spending their extra money in the area, what does that mean to the families at the farmers markets, the local grocery, the book store, the craft school some of us attend, the restaurants, etc?
How does a community, which relies on a significant amount of tourism, make out when a national, low budget dollar store opens it's doors? I am genuinely curious.
Last night I was on the phone with a representative of the Citizens Group which opposes the DG for Chester. As of today, I have applied for Party Status on the Act 250 hearing.
If you are serious about reducing carbon emissions, online shopping is a great start. Driving a few less miles to buy cheap stuff which is made in China where regulations are lax and their CO2 emissions are the largest on the planet, which will find it's way to the landfill, does not sound 'green' to me.
That's an important point that I've come to appreciate since moving to Vermont. You can buy just about anything online, usually for less money and with no tax. We buy just about everything besides fresh food that way. That includes a large snow blower, clothes, toothpaste, vitamins, furniture - you name it. At this rate my car is going to last forever. The irony is that the Internet is shrinking the market for big box stores. In a few years Walmart could be reduced to selling toilet paper and paper towels.
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