[Sherylcatmom]

From Vermont Life magazine: http://www.vermontlife.com/current_issue/wi07-writers.htm (broken link)

[arel]

Here's a specific question about courtesy in Vermont.

Here in Brooklyn, I find a lot of what I call "sir and honey" shops. By that I mean, if I walk in, I am asked, in a patronizing tone, what would I like, "honey" (or "dear" or "sweetie"). If a man walks in, the same person will speak in a noticeably more respectful tone, and even call the man "sir".

I have also had to deal with this in restaurants, with contractors and in other contexts I can't think of right now.

I find this grating, annoying, offensive and incredibly rude. In fact, I have a visceral negative reaction. But some people don't mind it at all. Some people think I'm nuts for even making an issue of it. I realize, of course, that some people are simply uneducated and provincial. Most have no idea that they are speaking in an insulting way, and are surprised, stung or even angered if this is brought to their attention. I also realize that I, because of my temperment and profession, may be more sensitive than some others - maybe too sensitive - to the presuppositions and implications of such speech.

I'm wondering: Would I get a lot of this in Vermont? I'm thinking specifically of Brattleboro. In my experience, I've been spoken to normally and respectfully by men I have met there, even older men. I don't recall being spoken to in a patronizing tone, or being addressed with inappropriate endearments, or being spoken to like I am a cute and ignorant 4-year-old.

[Sherylcatmom]

Originally Posted by arel

Would I get a lot of this in Vermont? I'm thinking specifically of Brattleboro. In my experience, I've been spoken to normally and respectfully by men I have met there, even older men. I don't recall being spoken to in a patronizing tone, or being addressed with inappropriate endearments, or being spoken to like I am a cute and ignorant 4-year-old.

I don't recall being spoken to in this way in Vermont. I think if I sensed patronizing attitudes or fake endearments as you're describing, I'd probably feel miffed.

For some reason, your post reminded me of the frequent contra dances I attended when I lived in Keene and fabulous dances were just 30-60 minutes away several nights each week. People who attend these dances are of all ages. During one night of dances, I might have partners ranging from teenaged boys to men in their 30s-50s, to senior (and very senior) men, and even women dancing the men's part. I think those frequent and positive contra dance experiences over several years helped form my thoughts of Vermont as more egalitarian than other places I've lived.

I went to only one Brattleboro contra. I think it was one of the dawn dances. It was pretty good as I recall.

[arel]

I attended a contra dance in Brattleboro once. My friend, in her 70's is a dance enthusiast who regularly attends circle dances and contra dances. She has brought me to both.

I am glad to hear that Vermont is egalitarian.

In New York, there are a lot of egalitarian influences, but there are a lot of sexist ones. For one thing, there are lots of immigrants from sexist societies. I recall being threatened with rape by a cabbie when I asked him not to call me "dear". This was a long time ago and I usually didn't use cabs, so I didn't think of taking down his hack number when I got in.

Actually, what happened was this: I gave him a very small tip, I think because he kept calling me "dear" and gave me an argument when I asked him not to. As I got out, with my retarded client, he said: "You're rude and abrasive, dear, and you better be careful because next time you might get raped."

Now, I take down hack numbers if I sense anything that makes me uncomfortable. But I still rarely use cabs.

There are lots of realtors in my neighborhood. I immediately eliminated one from consideration because of his patronizing speech, which included the inappropriate indearments. So, really, it is simply stupid to speak to people in that way. I even heard of hotel employees being trained not to call female guests "honey" or similar inapproprate words.

I really like so much that Vermont has to offer. I'm even beginning to suspect that I'll have little difficulty finding work in my field (mental health). And if people speak to me respectfully, I can live with the New England reserve. And I think I can handle the climate. You can bundle up against the cold, and Brattleboro is not that much colder than New York City.

I may end up making the move after all. We'll see.

BTW, why is Rutland called "Rutvegas"?

[quickdraw]

Originally Posted by arel

Here in Brooklyn, I find a lot of what I call "sir and honey" shops. By that I mean, if I walk in, I am asked, in a patronizing tone, what would I like, "honey" (or "dear" or "sweetie").

I like it when shop employees call me honey or sweetie. I don't think it has happened in Vermont more than a few times. And since I live in the Burlington area, the people who did it were probably re-located New Yorkers.

[flu189]

Originally Posted by quickdraw

I like it when shop employees call me honey or sweetie. I don't think it has happened in Vermont more than a few times. And since I live in the Burlington area, the people who did it were probably re-located New Yorkers.

Yeah, what's up with this? This was quite common when I was growing up in NY and I never thought anything of it. It's also very common in the southern states, or least from my travel experiences. Pretty soon all forms of expression will be banned and life will become even more sterile. I imagine maybe some may use these comments being wise guys, but I feel the majority mean no ill intent and it's just used as an expression.

[tkln]

I think it all depends on where it's happening and by whom. In a small town environment, I have no issue with honey or sweetie or anything...I sometimes have no issue with it in NYC either - but it really depends on who is saying it...as a matter of fact, I look FORWARD to terms of endearment in small towns, but again, it's a case by case basis...it really has so much to do with who is doing the speaking.

[arel]

Originally Posted by quickdraw

I like it when shop employees call me honey or sweetie. I don't think it has happened in Vermont more than a few times. And since I live in the Burlington area, the people who did it were probably re-located New Yorkers.

Some people do this as a verbal habit. There is no condescension or hostility. When this happens, especially if it comes from a woman, I do not mind it. I do not have that visceral negative reaction that I get.

I do get that reaction when there is a sense of male condescension towards women. I do not like being talked down to as if I am a child or a pet. And even as a child, I hated being patronized.

It is also true that "honey", "dear", etc. are endearments that are inappropriate in non-intimate situations. As such, when said by a man to a woman in a business situation, they are not only condescending, but also intrusive. It may not be overt sexual harassment, and it may not be overtly abusive, but it is violating.

And there is often a lot of hostility towards women under the surface.

I am glad that this behavior appears to be rare in Vermont.

[quickdraw]

I don't like to be called "sport" however. If a guy calls me "sport" I have no idea what it means, but I just don't like it.

[arel]

Originally Posted by flu189

Yeah, what's up with this? This was quite common when I was growing up in NY and I never thought anything of it. It's also very common in the southern states, or least from my travel experiences. Pretty soon all forms of expression will be banned and life will become even more sterile. I imagine maybe some may use these comments being wise guys, but I feel the majority mean no ill intent and it's just used as an expression.

It's not a matter of political correctness. It's a matter of simple justice and courtesy, of treating others with respect and not talking down to them because you think they are inferior to you.

There was once a Campbell's Soup ad, where an actress (from the TV show Dallas) said something to the effect of, "Sometimes little things are not such little things". In this case, soup was a little thing, but what it was supposed to symbolize was profound.

The problem with supposedly little things, if they are negative, is that their importance can be denied or minimized, while their corrosive effects go unchecked. The cumulative effect of small indignities, over a lifetime, can be greater than the impact of a single "major" trauma.

For a child, for example, it can derail emotional development, especially if the child speaks up and the child's concerns are denied or minimized, and even turned back on him/her. ("No, I didn't embarrass you in front of a group. You're just hypersensitive".) This has a big impact on the development of personality pathology and personality disorders, and also depression.

I do agree that most people mean no harm. But look at the presuppositions of such behavior. I talk to you like that, I look down on you. You are inferior, childlike, incapable, in need of my guidance.

Once I was parking on a New York street. A young man, from another culture (he had an accent) began to use hand motions to guide me into my spot. I neither requested nor needed such help. Was he trying to be nice? Perhaps. But when I asked him if he would have done that if I were a man and not a woman, he thought for a moment and said no. Now it's possible that he wouldn't have done that with a man for fear of offending him, but he still spoke to me in that patronizing ooze of a tone.

Sometimes this behavior is used to control women and keep them in a subordinate role. On some level, a condescending man can be saying, on some level, "Know your place and be submissive, or else". Women who have challenged this condescending behavior can testify to this, although, of course, it is not universal.