[harry chickpea]

WOW! Sierrajeff, that is seriously a brilliant analysis. Coal ruled WV, and the natives trying to survive in the rural areas HAD to kow tow two either the mine owners or unions - neither of which was friendly with the idea of youngsters coming in with new ideas. In contrast, VT had embraced tourism and had a dying agricultural base and nothing in particular to replace it.

Your comments are worthy of a PhD thesis in sociology.

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by Sierrajeff

As someone who spent my teen years in West Virginia, and then college and a fair bit of post-college in and near Vermont, I've long been fascinated by the similarities and differences between the two states - and in particular their divergent economic and cultural evolution from the 1960s onward.

Both are mountainous, forested states with a lot of natural beauty; and both are within 120 to 300 miles of major cities (Boston and NYC for Vermont; D.C., Baltimore and Richmond for WV). And if you go back to the 1930s / 40s / 50s, you find that both states are *very* similar in being fairly poor and working class, but with populations that can be described as fiercely independent and highly valuing of their local communities.

Vermont has skiing and draws 4+ million skier visits per year. The level of affluence among skiers is much higher than summer tourists. It's tough to make it on just the summer tourism business where the majority of the tourists are not spending much. The combination of lift ticket, hotel, meals, and all that alcohol injects a ton of money into the local economy. It's almost Disney levels.

Outside of Chittenden County, I'm not sure what Vermont can do to stop the flight of the best & the brightest. The high school student good enough to get into a top-tier college is probably never coming back. The old WW I song "How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm after they've seen Paree" comes to mind. It's not like this is a new problem.

[cgregor]

"The best and the brightest" are not necessarily the ones I would like to see in Vermont. One of them rose to the top ranks in Bear, Stearns and was in at the implosion. He has since come back to the state and used his very, very hefty retirement funds to try to gain political influence, when what this state needs is people who will pitch in and better their town (like Howard Dean did when he was just a shavetail pediatrician in Burlington, even though a scion of the Dean Witter family). Another lad left the state with his summa *** laude degree to go to work for Bain Capital, making his money by disemploying tens of thousands of Americans. For all I know, he's still doing it.

i think you'd be surprised at how many truly good people choose to move to and live in Vermont because they want to both live and shape the legend. They, in my opinion, are the best and the brightest.

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by cgregor

"The best and the brightest" are not necessarily the ones I would like to see in Vermont. One of them rose to the top ranks in Bear, Stearns and was in at the implosion. He has since come back to the state and used his very, very hefty retirement funds to try to gain political influence, when what this state needs is people who will pitch in and better their town (like Howard Dean did when he was just a shavetail pediatrician in Burlington, even though a scion of the Dean Witter family). Another lad left the state with his summa *** laude degree to go to work for Bain Capital, making his money by disemploying tens of thousands of Americans. For all I know, he's still doing it.

i think you'd be surprised at how many truly good people choose to move to and live in Vermont because they want to both live and shape the legend. They, in my opinion, are the best and the brightest.

Vermont needs intelligent and educated people to provide professional services to communities. How is any given VT town going to do without doctors, dentists, engineers, lawyers and so forth to meet the needs of the community? There need to be opportunities here to keep the best and brightest in VT instead of them going to urban centers to do as you describe.

[arctichomesteader]

Originally Posted by cgregor

Vermont's stereotype changed greatly in the mid-Sixties when the Interstate came through. Until then it had been isolated, inbred, impoverished and insular. It was the only state in the Union to have its population dribble away (read The Yankee Exodus) for a century, and while it produced the occasional Great Man ( e.g., Bill of AA fame, Admiral Dewey, Ted Bundy), generally it was considered the Ozarks of New England. It was populated with spavined and malnourished men who failed the WWII draft physical at a rate of 30%.

I don't know where you're getting your information, but it's simply untrue. Vermont was hardly inbred or insular. It wasn't a wealthy place but was about on par with any rural area in the northeast. It was affordable for its residents. No one was cruelly forced to leave their family and home because of a high cost of living as is the case today. Vermont started in the tourism business in the 19th century (look for the ruins of the old Glastenbury resort and railroad sometime, it was a failure because of mother nature but it's a fascinating attempt) and got more serious about it by the 1920's and 30's. Outsiders had long come to Vermont for the natural beauty and quiet. The author Rudyard Kipling for example, and later Robert Frost. Vermont has produced two presidents (impressive for so small a state) and a Vermonter, George Perkins Marsh, created the modern conservation movement with his work. One of the early territorial governors of Alaska was born in Somerset. The first school to teach teachers (the so-called normal school) was created in Concord, Vermont. Vermont attracted countless immigrants who quarried and carved granite and marble found in many places of national significance. Politically all the northern New England states were similar until the 1960's.

If your 30 percent rate is accurate on the draft failure, that's quite good. The national rate was around 40 percent. Remember that was during the Great Depression. Things were tough everywhere. Vermont was hardly alone in bleeding its population. So too did the other rural areas of northern New England, and the Great Plains lost population when the droughts came.

Right-wing politicians constantly bemoan the fact that Vermont's children leave the state, when actually that is the best next step for any young adult. Better to have people move here to pursue a dream than to live here all their life and grouse, "Is this all there is?"

If people are not impoverished they can travel to other places and see this country and the world without it being forced migration away from their loved ones and home in order to make a living. So I find this statement of yours just bizarre to the extreme. I've spent considerable time out of state the past few years because of the lack of opportunity in Vermont for higher education in certain fields and to work to make some income. I spent this summer in a part of the country I dislike to be able to make some much needed money. It wasn't the "best next step" for me to be in a place I dislike and a great distance from elderly parents who could use some help. I could have spent a few days on a vacation to where I spent a few months and that would have been good enough. If you think a total lack of opportunity forcing people to leave is good I really don't know what to say. The educated and intelligent should not consider themselves lucky to land a job as a cashier or ski lift operator.

[cgregor]

Well, you value being back here as a result of having left. I'd say that's a win.

[arctichomesteader]

I wouldn't say I value Vermont because I left. I've been to places I'd probably move to in a heartbeat over Vermont (Alaska). It's family and some forestry research I've undertaken that keeps me in VT for now. I think Vermont and Maine have the best quality of life in the eastern half of the country personally, but the economic situation in both is dismal. I don't see our neighbors' excessive development as something to model but the status quo is not going to be sustainable long term.

[cgregor]

Alaska-- The Green Mountain Forest writ large, VERY large!! It sounds like quality of life trumps economics for you, unless maybe you can persuade the family to move with you. That wouldn't work for me.

[Wolfdog17]

Anything with artists , vegetarians ,and open minded people

[Sporin]

Maybe it's because I live and spend most of my time just west of NH but I just don't see a big "hippie" culture here. What I mean to say is, the 60's style Commune is not around anymore as near as I've seen.

It's been replaced with stuff like Cobb Hill Cobb Hill CoHousing

Everyone has to put in a certain number of hours on the farm, and there is some communal aspects for sure. But $300k-$400k houses is hardly indicative of that old timey hippie culture. I know many families there and they are nice folks but it doesn't give off a tie dye and free love vibe in the slightest.

It's a "commune" in the same way Woodstock VT is a "quaint Vermont town."