[Tatti]

Hello. I currently live in Finland (mid-sized country in northern Europe), and I've been thinking about moving to the USA. So I've been searching info about the different states, so that I know where to move if I some day get a green card.

So, I am asking your opinnion on the subject: should I move to Vermont?

I value the following attributes in your state:

*4 seasons: Similar climate&nature with Finland. I do not enjoy extreme coldness or high temperatures.

*Gun laws: I hunt, target shoot and generally value the right to own arms. According to NRA-ILA :: (http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/#?st=VT - broken link) your gun laws seem rather non-existing

*Nature: I hunt, fish and generally enjoy living in the outdoors. I like rain, snow and so forth.

*Seemingly more slower pace of life

*(Hopefully) smaller taxes and cost of living: From what I've read, you seem to have quite high cost of living in the scale of America. But I doubt that it still is as expensive, as in a northern European welfare state where practically everything is taxed.

*Peaceful and safe state to live in




But I am concerned about the following: (biased mostly on opinnions and attitudes I've seen on the forums, so I can't state that I'd have a well-informed picture of the average mindset of a Vermonter)

*Lack of big market chains:

Here in Finland I live practically in a forest, but yet I can drive to the nearest mall in 10 minutes. I value living in the nature, but I do want to live near enough "civilization", that I can go grab myself a burger from a supranational fast food chain or buy myself a new Xbox 360 or PC game with out driving for hours to the nearest mall.

So do I have to make a choice between detached house in the woods with no modern comforts (high speed internet connection, fast food, cable TV etc) or in a block of flats in some suburb?


*Liberalism and the 2nd amedment:

I admit that I may have been brainwashed by certain groups, but as far as I know, generally more socially liberal people are generally against the right to keep and bear arms in the USA. And as far as I know, Vermont is know for it's liberal population.

So how strong is the gun culture in Vermont? Is it generally considered normal to own a lot of guns? Are there many politicians who'd like to tighten your gun laws? Are there many gun groups ensuring your gun rights?

Also, can you shoot on your backyard (as long as it's safe of course)? And are there a lot of gun clubs and shooting ranges in Vermont?


*Liberalism and race/culture:

The following part may sound like prejudical racism, but I do not intend to sound offensive. Anyways, in Finland and all over in Europe many socially liberal people want to attract more non-white immigrants just so it would "enrich" the local culture.

I don't personally got any race-related phobias or anything, but I am afraid that if that kind of attitude (more African/middle eastern immigrants with tax payers money) is popular over there, it might cause similar social problems (Ghettos, increased criminality, rise of right wing extremists/racist skinhead-movement, increased importance of islam in culture and politics, societal polarization to left and right and so on) in the future.







So, what do you think? Do you reckon that some other state might be more suitable for me?

I have considered southern states like Alabama, but I think that the climate would be just too hot for me. Also as an atheist, I do not want to live in a community where christianity has too strong influence on politics.
I do not mind religion, or push up my beliefs on other peoples face, but I dont want the Bible has too much influence to the creation of laws etc.







Also, I am intrested in starting up a gun shop of my own. Do you think that an immigrant can easily get a loan for such business? And how well do gun shop owners get along in your state? I'd probably sell knives&bows and hunting&fishing equipment too.


And how about the apartment prizes/rentals? Can you recommend me a site where I can see those? Is it very expensive to build for example 200 m^2 (2153 sqft) house to as far "in the middle of nowhere" as possible, as long as the driving trip to the nearest city stays tolerable? Water pipes and such probably cost alot when building to somewhere where there isn't any existing houses?
I'd live in a rental house for some time of course, depending on the loan of the gun shop.














So do you think that your magnificent state could offer a place to live in for a moderately conservative, SUV driving, meat eating (I hope there are some Wendy's in Vermont), gun loving NASCAR fan like me? Or would it be better for both your community and me, if I wouldn't bother?



I apologize if there are alot of typos and such in my text, I'm not very good in written english. Also I apologize if my text was too long-winded. And also, I'm not assuming that all Vermonters are 100% hippies. I've just got an overall picture that your community is very liberal.

[Lilybeans]

You raise a lot of interesting questions. Vermont is rural, but not backwards. There are plenty of chains around, although once you get out of the bigger towns, they take a while to drive to. Too many if you ask me.

Vermont, like most of the United States, still respects the US Cinstitution and the Second Amendment. The gun laws are good in Vermont, with two exceptions. Silencers (suppressors) are illegal in Vermont. And, since Vermont does not require permits to carry a concealed firearm, it is hard to carry a concealed fiream in another state. There are ways around that, for instance you can get a concealed carry permit form New Hampshire, or Florida.

Vermont has a strong hunting culture. As a result, guns are an accepted part of life.

Is it normal to own a lot of guns? I guess that depends what you consider a lot of guns. I don't really see much going on in Vermont as far as attempts to limit gun rights. I don't really think it's an issue in Vt.

Don't be fooled by what you see on TV. Things are not like they make them out to be.

Vermonters tend to be more Libertarian than Liberal, especially in the Northeast part of the state. I think the idea is that the government should just leave people alone, as long as no one gets hurt.

You can certainly shoot on your own land, provided it's safe, of course. There are gun clubs around, but Vermont is quite rural and there are plenty of other places to shoot.

The United States is a multi-racial society. As a result, I don't think any state goes out of it's way to attract non-whites. People come and go where they want to, but Vermont historically has a low minority population. Personally, I think homogeneous population helps contribute to the lower crime rate. I'll probably take all kinds of heat for saying that.

Opening a gun store is a little more difficult. You would need to get a federal firearms license in order to sell guns. I don't know what the requirements for that are. Go to http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm to check it out. (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm - broken link)

Owning a gun store in an area with a low population is a very difficult way to make a living.

I hope this helps a little.

[Summerz]

I don't know for sure but I'm thinking you *might be happier in another state. Have you checked out Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, for example or others?

Good luck on your move.

[Wingfoot]

Best place for a Finn is Upper Peninsula of Michigan where Finns are dominant immigrant group and people
are tolerant which they are not in the Rocky Mountain states. Plenty of "sisu" around and the good Finnish co-operative spirit.
Great fishing and a real hunting culture. And lots of sauna !

[Brave Stranger]

Look at New Hampshire right next to Vermont.....it seems to be more your cup of tea.

[harry chickpea]

I don't see any problems except the gun shop business idea. The ones in Vermont are too good and there isn't much room for competition. Michigan or possibly Maine would be alternatives.

[arctichomesteader]

Some towns and cities have ordinances against shooting in town limits. Sometimes it only applies to certain parts of town. You'll have to check that out when you buy property.

Getting the firearms dealer's license is a pain in the neck, moreso if you're an immigrant. Doable I think, but the ATF is a nasty government agency to deal with.

There's definately a strong hunting and gun culture in VT. Stronger the further Northeast you get in the state. Brattleboro and Burlington are where it's the weakest I'd say.

[RATT]

Originally Posted by Tatti

So, I am asking your opinnion on the subject: should I move to Vermont?

I value the following attributes in your state:

*Gun laws: I hunt, target shoot and generally value the right to own arms. According to NRA-ILA :: (http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/#?st=VT - broken link) your gun laws seem rather non-existing

*(Hopefully) smaller taxes and cost of living: From what I've read, you seem to have quite high cost of living in the scale of America. But I doubt that it still is as expensive, as in a northern European welfare state where practically everything is taxed.
*Peaceful and safe state to live in
But I am concerned about the following: (biased mostly on opinnions and attitudes I've seen on the forums, so I can't state that I'd have a well-informed picture of the average mindset of a Vermonter)
*Lack of big market chains:
Here in Finland I live practically in a forest, but yet I can drive to the nearest mall in 10 minutes. I value living in the nature, but I do want to live near enough "civilization", that I can go grab myself a burger from a supranational fast food chain or buy myself a new Xbox 360 or PC game with out driving for hours to the nearest mall.


*Liberalism and race/culture:

The following part may sound like prejudical racism, but I do not intend to sound offensive. Anyways, in Finland and all over in Europe many socially liberal people want to attract more non-white immigrants just so it would "enrich" the local culture.

I don't personally got any race-related phobias or anything, but I am afraid that if that kind of attitude (more African/middle eastern immigrants with tax payers money) is popular over there, it might cause similar social problems (Ghettos, increased criminality, rise of right wing extremists/racist skinhead-movement, increased importance of islam in culture and politics, societal polarization to left and right and so on) in the future.
I have considered southern states like Alabama, but I think that the climate would be just too hot for me. Also as an atheist, I do not want to live in a community where christianity has too strong influence on politics.
I do not mind religion, or push up my beliefs on other peoples face, but I dont want the Bible has too much influence to the creation of laws etc.

Dear Tati,
As a Canadian and fellow atheist i appreciate and understand a lot of the things you have to say.Someone mention in the expectantly dismissive manner when ever one dares to ask the questions you have,to go to the northern Rockies (Ida,MT and WY.).I have visited these areas they are really nice especially Bozeman MT but they are too right wing and religious for my taste,also you are 3 hrs. behind the east coast and everything in the states and Canada are East coast centric.However as a last resort i would recommend Bozeman or it's suburbs if you can't find anything else.
You are absolutely right to be concern and want to run away from all this diversity that so many feel compelled to shoved down every body else s throats.All the Scandinavian countries (and up here in Canada) have experience the DEVASTATING effect and results of diversity .Vermont is perceived to be a majority white state but if you go to Burlington or Plattsburgh you will see that the same forces witch have destroyed cities like:Helsinki,Oslo,Copenhagen,Stockholm,London,Par is,Montreal,Toronto and Vancouver(to only name them) are at work in these idyllic little towns.It won't be long if the local citizenry does not rise up before they "get theirs" .I saw today on Vermont television that a town named woonosky is wondering"How to cope with the influx of Immigrants...." As Lylibeans so courageously pointed out " I think homogeneous population helps contribute to the lower crime rate."look's like someone is working hard to turn Burlington into Montreal.
I have been looking at alternative such as: the Glens Falls,N.Y. area also i have been looking to buy land in the Arlington,VT area.Perhaps you might also consider Brattleboro VT as possible destination.
From 2010 onward the cities of Europe and North America are going to be deteriorating at a alarming rate witch are going to make them even worst than they already are presently!.
One need to be well armed,self sufficient and hopefully have acreage near a pristine water source well away from the cities.Vermont even if it is not perfect is a great place to retreat too,IMO.
Good Luck old chum.

[Wingfoot]

Originally Posted by harry chickpea

I don't see any problems except the gun shop business idea. The ones in Vermont are too good and there isn't much room for competition. Michigan or possibly Maine would be alternatives.

True, but the one in Upper Midwest ,MN,WI,MN is MUCH stronger, near religious overtones.
And I've lived and hunted both.Plus the deer per sq, mile count is 3-4 times higher.

[Tatti]

Originally Posted by Lilybeans

Vermonters tend to be more Libertarian than Liberal, especially in the Northeast part of the state. I think the idea is that the government should just leave people alone, as long as no one gets hurt.

That's exactly what I'm looking from USA: small goverment, big individual. I'm afraid that the amount of taxes, rules and regulations will just grow in the future in the whole EU area, and that we are heading towards a collective nanny-state.
I really don't want too see things getting banned because "the goverment has to take care of it's citizens" and such. The system here seems to be like this: if an individual ****s up, it's never the fault of the individual, the goverment should instead "take care" of the individuals and ban stuff in the name of general safety.

Opening a gun store is a little more difficult. You would need to get a federal firearms license in order to sell guns. I don't know what the requirements for that are. Go to http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm to check it out. (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm - broken link)

Owning a gun store in an area with a low population is a very difficult way to make a living.

That seems a bit worrying to me. Not that dealing guns for my living is an absolute must for me, but I would like to make my living as a private entrepreneur. I'm not really intrested in any particular study in university, so I don't feel motivated enough to get myself academic papers.

As a private entrepreneur I'd like to sell guns, because I got both knowledge and personal intrests for that kind of market.

Originally Posted by arctichomesteader

Getting the firearms dealer's license is a pain in the neck, moreso if you're an immigrant. Doable I think, but the ATF is a nasty government agency to deal with.

Do you know if there are anything I could personally do in order to make the process faster?
I got naturally a clean criminal record, and I don't have any mental disorders. I'm a member of a gun club, and I could serve in the finnish army if it helps (every male in Finland has to either do 1 year of civil service or ½ years of army between ages 18 to 30 or something).

Are economy studies mandatory?

Originally Posted by Brave Stranger

Look at New Hampshire right next to Vermont.....it seems to be more your cup of tea.

Yeah, NH seems to have good gun laws too (legal to own Machine guns, but they are registered and you need a special permit for those?). Nature/climate seems to be identical to Vermont too.
How about the cost of living? Is it any higher, or lower?



I am really concerned about the cost of living. I won't mind paying a bit extra for my products and taxes in exchange for untouched nature and tranquil pace of life once I get my life stabilized, but when I move in I got to buy myself a car, rent an appartment, take loan for my enterprise and so forth, and that is the phase of life where I can't afford high cost of living.

I'm not sure how much money I'll have when/if I move, but I know it wont be enough to have any rest untill I have regular incomes.

Originally Posted by Wingfoot

Best place for a Finn is Upper Peninsula of Michigan where Finns are dominant immigrant group and people

I'm not really looking to live in a miniature Finland, or live exactly like in Finland, as it's exactly the thing I oppose in immigration. "Maassa maan tavalla" like we say here, you live like an american in America.

But of course it's a good thing that there is "peer support" in the area where I live.

Originally Posted by RATT

From 2010 onward the cities of Europe and North America are going to be deteriorating at a alarming rate witch are going to make them even worst than they already are presently!.
One need to be well armed,self sufficient and hopefully have acreage near a pristine water source well away from the cities.Vermont even if it is not perfect is a great place to retreat too,IMO.

Yeah, I want to live in the woods when the **** hits the fan (which I'm actually partially waiting for, as the human population needs radical reduction. But let's not discuss about my post-apocalyptic fantasies here)
Stacking guns and food, I'll be ready. Northern Finland would also be a good place for that, but I'm afraid that the corrupting tentacles of European Union have already reached that area, even though there wouldn't be any overpopulation problems.