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What gives you the idea that an entire culture is immature and teenager-like? From what you see on TV? I'll clue you in. What you see on TV is fiction. While knuckleheads exist in every race, they are not representative of the entire race.
It's statements like this that give validity to job-discrimination. If a person with your viewpoint were to interview three applicants for a position, my guess is your choice would be the non-black person regardless of qualifications because you view black people as immature and teenage-like.
Wrong.
You are having a knee-jerk reaction instead of looking at what I actually said.
I said black CULTURE is immature. This is true. However.. not all black people follow black culture. Those are usually the successful ones. Like our President and many other blacks I know.
I'm not talking about listening to rap music. I'm talking about acting and dressing like a rebellious teenager and speaking like you are illiterate. This is not something all blacks do and only a racist would assume all blacks do this. In fact.. many non-blacks embrace black culture and they come off just as ignorant.
Face it: You still feel slighted by slavery and Jim Crow, and you weren't even around or of age to actually experience any of it. It's called vicitimization, and you got a hefty dose of it as a child, which is why you think the way you do as an adult. I'm sure "the talk" your parents gave you about "white people" had nothing to do with it, right? Because, you know, we're all out to hold you and yours down. Wouldn't want you to be equal, ya know? /sarcasm
Incorrect. I do not feel slighted, only enlightened. I gave facts from credible sources from the beginning. Questions were asked about why those Census numbers were unequal. I provided additional stats and peer reviewed studies of plausible reasons why those numbers have ALWAYS been unequal. And somehow I've been accused of making excuses instead of having an honest discussion about data that already exists.
Someone brought up education as the means to escape inequality. That's fine, but they failed to understand that there are still ineuqlities even when blacks have more qualifications, education and skill-wise. Even in education there exists proven inequalities that have roots in the past due to segregation, discriminatory redistricting, and the abandonment of affluent educated white people from majority black neighborhoods. I even shared a video about Detroit's school system that declined after white flight to the suburbs. Guess that wasn't good enough either.
Then I highlight the importance of understanding history and how it has shaped the world we live in today. Most would agree with me, but now I'm accused of feeling slighted and victimized. lol Really? Is this what facts and history is met with these days? Accusations of emotion and character assassinations?
No one has shown me stats or studies where inequality doesn't exist in terms of wealth, income, or education. No one has shown me studies where discrimination and prejudice is non-existent and has no-longer any effect on hiring practices. No one has shown me any studies where black men are less-likely perceived as criminals than white men and enjoy all the benefits and privileges as if they were white.
So much for trying to have an educated discussion on inequality. My participation on this subject is done. I agree to disagree less this discussion becomes predictably circular.
I disagree. What culture chooses to ignore their past? There are thousands of people who sacrificed in the civil rights era so that that those after them could get a "fair" shake. What they went through shouldn't be remembered and understood? My wife's parents living in NC couldn't even buy homes in the white neighborhoods even if they had the money. Their only option was to live in the black neighborhoods. Whose house do you think quadrupled in value and whose didn't? So, now that her father intends to sell his house, how much wealth can he gain from it while those in the neighborhoods who redlined him gain from their homes?
How will redlining come into play when wealth is transferred to the next generation? How much wealth do you think black people could hand down from that generation so that at least our generation could get a leg up on society? I'm thinking not much if my wife's parents' experience is any indication. That plays a part in the current data showing the wealth gap between races.
Not every black person will get a PhD or a white collar job. There will always be those blacks who are wealthy and those who are poor. But there are still inequalities in all categories when compared to whites. We need to learn the origins of those numbers so that we can better understand them and position ourselves to mitigate the effects as a people.
There has to be an understanding of the past so that we can work to make the future better. Understanding the past is not an excuse for laziness or irresponsibility. But it is better to understand what odds may be stacked against you. That should motivate you, not cause you to give up and make excuses.
Education provides a better chance to make higher salaries. The higher salaries provides access to better neighborhoods. Better neighborhoods have better schools. But when an entire race lags in education, a key to all of that, one HAS to look at how those inequalities came to be. Blacks aren't born dumb. So, the natural question is why has education levels been unequal for so long? The disparity in education stems from policies a long time ago. A few decades of desegregation, fair real estate regulations, and non-discriminatory school redistricting won't solve those inequalities overnight.
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Historical relevance is very important in society. The numbers I presented in the original post tells a story that is greater than irresponsibility and excuses. I fail to believe an entire race underachieves because they are irresponsible and make excuses for their lot in life. We're talking about all stratospheres of the black population being unequal. That includes the wealthy, educated, and hard-working as well as the poor.
Unless people are okay with this status-quo of inequality, I think history should be referenced often until all people can gain a historical perspective that empowers them to make choices void of prejudice and perception; racial or otherwise. Otherwise, no matter how hard we try as a people, we'll always be perceived as second class. My success or the success of others in my race should not hinder us from understanding the plight of black people and their history. It all connects and it is all still relevant...unfortunately.
This horse has been beaten to death, buried, dug out of it's grave and beaten some more. I don't think there's a person alive who doesn't know what happened to Black people in this country's history. There are individuals who make an income from continually rehashing these matters. No one needs to be further educated about it because we aren't allowed to forget.
I don't want anyone looking at me like I'm handicapped because my ancestors were slaves (I have White ancestry as well, a lot of us do).
You say that not all Black people will obtain PhDs and/or white collar (plenty of low paying jobs fit this category) jobs. Just an FYI, there are blue collar jobs that pay in the six figures provided you develop your skill set and are good at what you do (you may even segue into a white collar job as a superintendent). You're looking at a very small portion of people from all races. Various high level jobs require a certain type of personality or rather people with certain temperaments tend to gravitate to these jobs. I may be capable of performing the work of an engineer, I just don't have an interest in it. Not many people do, hence the higher average salary.
Black people could drastically change their lot in life simply by establishing a good "baseline" of success that would pay dividends to their children and future generations. My parents won't have anything to pass down to me or my siblings, if anything they'll probably become a burden. However this is not the case with my or my Sister's kids as we've obtained good salaries and solid assets. This doesn't require a whole lot of money, but you have to start somewhere.
We came from nothing and have already begun paying our success forward. This is how it's done. There are no victims in my house.
You are having a knee-jerk reaction instead of looking at what I actually said.
I said black CULTURE is immature. This is true. However.. not all black people follow black culture. Those are usually the successful ones. Like our President and many other blacks I know.
I'm not talking about listening to rap music. I'm talking about acting and dressing like a rebellious teenager and speaking like you are illiterate. This is not something all blacks do and only a racist would assume all blacks do this. In fact.. many non-blacks embrace black culture and they come off just as ignorant.
I think the issue is you labeled it wrong... it is not "black culture". Even you say many non-blacks embrace it... you need to rename it.
Maybe rap culture is what you are looking for?
But saying "black culture" and then trying to dig yourself out of it by saying you did not say what you said does not sound right.
Maybe you typed exactly what you were thinking at the time... and it simply came out. Hmm...
As a successful Black man myself, I see absolutely no point in bringing up the historical plight of Black people. It doesn't help us move forward "today". Everyone gets dealt a particular hand in life and you have to make the most out of whatever situation you arrived in. When people tell you you're oppressed or not given a fair shake, it changes the way you feel about yourself. Some people use it as an excuse and/or crutch not to achieve anything worthwhile. Its gotten to the point where it sickens me to hear it.
The plight is history and should be told. Jewish people should not tell of the holocaust? Now where you are right is how people use the "story" or "information". The plight of black Americans can be a powerful tool to more them forward... or, as you say, an excuse or crutch.
I don't believe that history is either and that is the problem... too many people like you are running away from the story and the young people are lost.
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I was one of those bad teenagers that should have become another statistic. Instead, I got wise, I knew it was in me to do better, to be a critical thinker, to discipline myself and stop taking the lazy route. I had no guidance, my Father was a drug addict and I was messing around on the streets with all manner of thugs and lowlifes. I made a conscious decision to change and I did it before I became an adult, which greatly helped future job opportunities (especially as a government contractor).
No one helped you? You woke up a changed person? To be honest, I don't buy your story... I'll let you know flatly. I would guess your mom/grandma/sister/brother/uncle or someone was one hell of an influence. Maybe you don't give them props, but I'm rather sure someone helped raise you right.
.. even if you did not listen to start.
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Black people set the bar low for themselves. Chris Rock comes to mind, especially his commentary on how Black people want credit for doing things any responsible person ought to do (if you have't seen it, it's all over youtube). Bill Cosby, another important figure that many Black people like to chastise because he speaks the truth no one wants to hear (about popular black culture), is a strong proponent of taking responsibility for making poor decisions.
I'm not sure it is always that they set the bar low... they might not know how low or how high the bar can go. You don't know what you don't know... I know of several jobs that I might have liked more if I'd known about them at a younger age. My friends knew about them through their parents' friends. My parents did not have access to those people.
So my bar was set low because I did not know about the bar... I quickly learned and raised it high as hell... and made it. But I don't assume since I made it, all people in that situation can make it without help. I had TONS of help along the way. Some don't get that help.
Quote:
I'm not trying to minimize what happened in the past, but it's time to address what's happening today. There is no easy solution, but in my opinion, a strong start would be getting rid of any notion of unfairness. We all know it exists and we're ALL guilty of being prejudiced, we're human after all, but lets get beyond this and actually strive to achieve and become respected players in this game.
Incorrect. I do not feel slighted, only enlightened. I gave facts from credible sources from the beginning. Questions were asked about why those Census numbers were unequal. I provided additional stats and peer reviewed studies of plausible reasons why those numbers have ALWAYS been unequal. And somehow I've been accused of making excuses instead of having an honest discussion about data that already exists.
Someone brought up education as the means to escape inequality. That's fine, but they failed to understand that there are still ineuqlities even when blacks have more qualifications, education and skill-wise. Even in education there exists proven inequalities that have roots in the past due to segregation, discriminatory redistricting, and the abandonment of affluent educated white people from majority black neighborhoods. I even shared a video about Detroit's school system that declined after white flight to the suburbs. Guess that wasn't good enough either.
Then I highlight the importance of understanding history and how it has shaped the world we live in today. Most would agree with me, but now I'm accused of feeling slighted and victimized. lol Really? Is this what facts and history is met with these days? Accusations of emotion and character assassinations?
No one has shown me stats or studies where inequality doesn't exist in terms of wealth, income, or education. No one has shown me studies where discrimination and prejudice is non-existent and has no-longer any effect on hiring practices. No one has shown me any studies where black men are less-likely perceived as criminals than white men and enjoy all the benefits and privileges as if they were white.
So much for trying to have an educated discussion on inequality. My participation on this subject is done. I agree to disagree less this discussion becomes predictably circular.
Keep reading your "White People Are The Devil" books. I'm sure you'll be back to the forum to tell us how corrosive white people have been to society sometime in the near future. Because we all know that your penchant (and obviously your reading hobby) is to identify ways to prop up black "inequality" in a way that obviously points fingers at everyone (ie. white people) but those who perpetuate that "inequality" (ie. black people) through such horrid statistics as high school drop outs (can't blame whitey), crime statistics (can't blame whitey), abortion (can't blame whitey), out-of-wedlock children/absent fathers (can't blame whitey), etc, etc.
But surely, you'll find a way to blame whitey under the guise of some sort of "educated" outlook you think you hold. What you actually hold is a not-so-disguised dislike for white people. Let's just call it what it is.
The plight is history and should be told. Jewish people should not tell of the holocaust? Now where you are right is how people use the "story" or "information". The plight of black Americans can be a powerful tool to more them forward... or, as you say, an excuse or crutch.
I don't believe that history is either and that is the problem... too many people like you are running away from the story and the young people are lost.
The story HAS been told and continues to be told. We have memorials, museums, holidays, etc. just like the Jewish, however they don't continue to throw out the race card for their failings. They are some of the most successful people in the world, but they didn't get there without hard work and moving beyond past atrocities committed against them.
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Originally Posted by King_of_DC
No one helped you? You woke up a changed person? To be honest, I don't buy your story... I'll let you know flatly. I would guess your mom/grandma/sister/brother/uncle or someone was one hell of an influence. Maybe you don't give them props, but I'm rather sure someone helped raise you right.
.. even if you did not listen to start.
This is beside the point I was making. Unless you grew up living in the mountains as hermit how can any individual not be influenced by someone? I was in a dysfunctional home and had no coaching, no guidance, no discipline, no one enforcing rules upon my behavior. The main thrust of my post was that opportunities were there for the taking, I simply had to make the decision to TAKE them. No one was holding me back except myself. Typically, those who engage in the acts I did as a teen don't have good future prospects. Imagine how much easier it is for people who never got into that kind of trouble in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by King_of_DC
I'm not sure it is always that they set the bar low... they might not know how low or how high the bar can go. You don't know what you don't know... I know of several jobs that I might have liked more if I'd known about them at a younger age. My friends knew about them through their parents' friends. My parents did not have access to those people.
So my bar was set low because I did not know about the bar... I quickly learned and raised it high as hell... and made it. But I don't assume since I made it, all people in that situation can make it without help. I had TONS of help along the way. Some don't get that help.
You made it because you "learned" and worked toward becoming a success, you took the "initiative". If all these claims of willful acts to purposely keep Black people in poverty were true, how were you not affected or I and any number of the successful Black men who are involved in this discussion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by King_of_DC
The solution for today is in the past...
You guys keep saying this, but haven't elucidated exactly how this would work. I maintain that at this stage of the game, it only serves to weaken the minds of Black people and cause them to point fingers at ghosts rather than utilize what's in front of them, opportunities which are available to everyone.
The history of black people in America cannot be ignored and I agree that blacks cannot continue to use it as excuse to throw in the towel.
It's ok to say "look at BaracK Obama, Collin Powel, Eric Holder, Fredrick Douglas" and many others as successes amidst odds but I will also say that those same people also recognized that in addition to individual responsibility, the collective responsibility is also needed in many cases to bring people up. Obama himself talks about this alll the time. I will argue that everyone of those and many more had some help some where to boost their moral when the going got tough.
Despite Obama getting to the pinnacle of achievement, just look at the hell he's induring because of his race from haters. Besides smarts. determination and pragmatism, he has luck on his side to continue to get up every morning to face these all out war to destroy and get him out of the WH and winning. Many blacks adults go through that everyday at workplaces and many minority students go through that as well in schools. Should that be an excuse to throw in the towel? No. But many unfortunately will and do succomb to such hostility and who are we to judge and call them wimps without being in their shoes?
Although Obama's father was not there growing up, there's no doubt in my mind that the young Obama knowing that his father, a black African, was a Harvard man gave him some pride and boost to say, 'cool I can do it as well' - in addition, to his mother who was equally educated and grand parents and even his equally educated Indonesian stepfather. Many kids didn't/don't have such support system or anyone to look up to like that.
There's this article running now in the Atlantic Magazine titled "Why teacher's of color quit the profession." In my opinion, that article gives an inside view of what minority teachers go through compared to white counterparts, what they hear from black and hispanic students and the overall minority students attitude about school. While many of those students do overcome those pressures and succeed individually,addrssing the reasons for why minority students feel that way about school - a collective effort - cannot be ignored. What is causing many minority students to feel so passive about school? Is that not a fair question to ask and find collective solutions to?
I also read another article on the same Atlantic about how black students from upper middle class in elite private schools fair - despite being very individually smart with educated smart parents that can pay the bills. These kids' problems here are no longer "black culture" problem but the overall mainstream culture and how it sees blacks regardless of smarts, support systems and money. Doesn't that go back to that same history and should that be overlooked and we simply tell the kids to 'tough it out son?' Unfortunately though, I don't see any quick solutions because laws cannot change people's attitude towards others and believe me, it starts in preschool.
Everyone who made it had some help somewhere. in addition to hardwork. They may not know it or call it help. Also, the power of societal/institutional negative suggestions cannot be overlooked especially with kids who don't have the family structure/support systems to postively reinforce them about ignoring such bombardment of negatives.
The history of black people in America cannot be ignored and I agree that blacks cannot continue to use it as excuse to throw in the towel.
It's ok to say "look at BaracK Obama, Collin Powel, Eric Holder, Fredrick Douglas" and many others as successes amidst odds but I will also say that those same people also recognized that in addition to individual responsibility, the collective responsibility is also needed in many cases to bring people up. Obama himself talks about this alll the time. I will argue that everyone of those and many more had some help some where to boost their moral when the going got tough.
Despite Obama getting to the pinnacle of achievement, just look at the hell he's induring because of his race from haters. Besides smarts. determination and pragmatism, he has luck on his side to continue to get up every morning to face these all out war to destroy and get him out of the WH and winning. Many blacks adults go through that everyday at workplaces and many minority students go through that as well in schools. Should that be an excuse to throw in the towel? No. But many unfortunately will and do succomb to such hostility and who are we to judge and call them wimps without being in their shoes?
Although Obama's father was not there growing up, there's no doubt in my mind that the young Obama knowing that his father, a black African, was a Harvard man gave him some pride and boost to say, 'cool I can do it as well' - in addition, to his mother who was equally educated and grand parents and even his equally educated Indonesian stepfather. Many kids didn't/don't have such support system or anyone to look up to like that.
There's this article running now in the Atlantic Magazine titled "Why teacher's of color quit the profession." In my opinion, that article gives an inside view of what minority teachers go through compared to white counterparts, what they hear from black and hispanic students and the overall minority students attitude about school. While many of those students do overcome those pressures and succeed individually,addrssing the reasons for why minority students feel that way about school - a collective effort - cannot be ignored. What is causing many minority students to feel so passive about school? Is that not a fair question to ask and find collective solutions to?
I also read another article on the same Atlantic about how black students from upper middle class in elite private schools fair - despite being very individually smart with educated smart parents that can pay the bills. These kids' problems here are no longer "black culture" problem but the overall mainstream culture and how it sees blacks regardless of smarts, support systems and money. Doesn't that go back to that same history and should that be overlooked and we simply tell the kids to 'tough it out son?' Unfortunately though, I don't see any quick solutions because laws cannot change people's attitude towards others and believe me, it starts in preschool.
Everyone who made it had some help somewhere. in addition to hardwork. They may not know it or call it help. Also, the power of societal/institutional negative suggestions cannot be overlooked especially with kids who don't have the family structure/support systems to postively reinforce them about ignoring such bombardment of negatives.
1. The Atlantic is an extremely bias publication. Their goal is to convince you to think a certain way. Mission Accomplished.
2. What you are saying about black people comes off extremely racist. You are in essence suggesting that we deserve a handicap, even the most successful black people. Is this 'alleged luck' that Obama had only exclusive to the black race? Do other races not face obstacles?
3. I will reiterate the things you bring up do not necessarily apply to the OP's example of blacks in this region. Even when they do, black people are not some stupid group of people who can't control our actions. If you have sex with a girl as a teenager and you get her pregnant, that is a personal choice with good and bad consequences. If you decide to not help raise that child, that is a conscious choice. Again black people are not stupid people. These behavior happens because they are often a reflection of a lack of parent that transcends into other races but not to the same degree.
You keep speaking of black people like we are some different species or something. The same issues that impact blacks impact others but it all depends on personal choices and the choices of parents. Parents have the biggest impact on what direction their kids go into. The problem is too many parents do not see themselves as the issue and do not take responsibility to raise their kids. The most successful kids are ones with two dedicated loving parents. Unfortunately there are many who make poor choices with whom they have children with.
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Because, you know, we're all out to hold you and yours down. Wouldn't want you to be equal, ya know? /sarcasm 
