National Harbor vs. Inner Harbor (Baltimore, Potomac: home, living, restaurants)

[adelphi_sky]

Here are my thoughts on comparisons involving National Harbor to other places.

First, I think it's great that National Harbor is being compared to great cities, harbors, towns, etc. It shows that it is a place that people are at least aware of and respect it for the impact it has made, however small or large.

Second, I do feel that some comparisons are premature or are misguided. I think the misunderstanding is that people feel that National Harbor is a city in and of itself? I'm not sure. But I hear people compare its amenities to those offered in actual cities. NH is about 1/3 the size of downtown Bethesda and about half the size of Downtown Silver Spring. NH is not part of a port city like Baltimore or NYC, or even DC. Its residential options are about a quarter the size of its own guest accommodations. Therefore its shopping and restaurant options will always pale in comparison.

Third, with NH being at the edge of a suburban bedroom sfh neighborhood, FT Washington, public transit was understood to be lacking for some time. Baltimore and DC are established cities with existing transit. NH is a glorified suburban town center (think of a town center in a suburb like Bowie Town Center void of transit options). I think people knew this about NH even before it was built. Therefor we can compare NH's transit options for years and still come to the same conclusion. It's lacking. Even Old town Alexandria, when they get their harbor project going, will have better transit connections because it is an established city over 100+ years old. NH is a "town center" that is 8 years old.

Baltimore's harbor has more to do and has more people because it is within a high density downtown urban area. The same goes for DC's waterfront when it gets completed. This will be the case even when NH gets public transit options. You can simply walk a few blocks to experience other parts of downtown Baltimore, DC, or New York. NH is self-contained and isolated.

Lastly, I think NH is great and I love the IH in Baltimore. But I think to accurately compare NH with other places, there needs to be a focus on its convention business. I think that is a more accurate comparison and where NH shines.

NH is great for what it is, but it is also very unique on the east coast. If I'm not mistaken, it is very rare for such a large river/bay/ocean project not to be part of a city center or at least within city limits. If another project like that exists, then perhaps comparisons can be made there.

Maybe we should be comparing NH to town centers?

[P47P47]

Originally Posted by ChuteTheMall

Historic vs contrived.

Is this a claim that Harborplace and the other tourist attractions at Baltimore's Inner Harbor (known until the 1970's as "the Basin") are historic and not contrived?


In John Waters' "Pink Flamingos" (1972), there's a scene showing Divine (as Babs Johnson) walking up the stairs at Federal Hill. You can see the pre-Harborplace Inner Harbor in the background. By that time the waterfront had been cleared of the piers and warehouses, and most of the other old buildings. In the director's commentary on the DVD, Waters says "...it was rotting piers, lesbian bars, and killers. It was much better then."

[justtitans]

Is National Harbor considered to be a town center or a destination/resort type development? It seems like it tries to do both. I think it's different from most town centers in that it encourages people from outside the area to stay there for weekend getaways. I don't see people staying at Bethesda Row or Reston Town Center, as a destination getaway, those seem like true town centers that are fit for the area in which they are located. NH just seems to do that, but also provide unique activities that would draw out of towners. Maybe the path way NH is on, is a unique one and there isn't much to compare it to right now. I think Inner Harbor is sort of similar in that it could be a destination location, but it is more of a destination for people who want to be near the rest of the city as opposed to NH trying to be a destination itself. NH is much more self-contained and isolated. Inner Harbor is located well enough that you can do other things besides being there so it doesn't in itself have to be a destination.

[UrbanScholar]

Originally Posted by adelphi_sky

Here are my thoughts on comparisons involving National Harbor to other places.

First, I think it's great that National Harbor is being compared to great cities, harbors, towns, etc. It shows that it is a place that people are at least aware of and respect it for the impact it has made, however small or large.

Second, I do feel that some comparisons are premature or are misguided. I think the misunderstanding is that people feel that National Harbor is a city in and of itself? I'm not sure. But I hear people compare its amenities to those offered in actual cities. NH is about 1/3 the size of downtown Bethesda and about half the size of Downtown Silver Spring. NH is not part of a port city like Baltimore or NYC, or even DC. Its residential options are about a quarter the size of its own guest accommodations. Therefore its shopping and restaurant options will always pale in comparison.

Third, with NH being at the edge of a suburban bedroom sfh neighborhood, FT Washington, public transit was understood to be lacking for some time. Baltimore and DC are established cities with existing transit. NH is a glorified suburban town center (think of a town center in a suburb like Bowie Town Center void of transit options). I think people knew this about NH even before it was built. Therefor we can compare NH's transit options for years and still come to the same conclusion. It's lacking. Even Old town Alexandria, when they get their harbor project going, will have better transit connections because it is an established city over 100+ years old. NH is a "town center" that is 8 years old.

Baltimore's harbor has more to do and has more people because it is within a high density downtown urban area. The same goes for DC's waterfront when it gets completed. This will be the case even when NH gets public transit options. You can simply walk a few blocks to experience other parts of downtown Baltimore, DC, or New York. NH is self-contained and isolated.

Lastly, I think NH is great and I love the IH in Baltimore. But I think to accurately compare NH with other places, there needs to be a focus on its convention business. I think that is a more accurate comparison and where NH shines.

NH is great for what it is, but it is also very unique on the east coast. If I'm not mistaken, it is very rare for such a large river/bay/ocean project not to be part of a city center or at least within city limits. If another project like that exists, then perhaps comparisons can be made there.

Maybe we should be comparing NH to town centers?

To add to your point, the area surrounding the National Harbor was previously designated as being part of the rural tier(until about 8 or 9 years ago). That designation doesn't promote transportation or density. I guess that changed once it became obvious the population was growing significantly. But because that change was recent, its going to be a while before the desired mass transit that people desire will happen due to bureaucracy alone.

[tcave360]

Originally Posted by P47P47

Is this a claim that Harborplace and the other tourist attractions at Baltimore's Inner Harbor (known until the 1970's as "the Basin") are historic and not contrived?


In John Waters' "Pink Flamingos" (1972), there's a scene showing Divine (as Babs Johnson) walking up the stairs at Federal Hill. You can see the pre-Harborplace Inner Harbor in the background. By that time the waterfront had been cleared of the piers and warehouses, and most of the other old buildings. In the director's commentary on the DVD, Waters says "...it was rotting piers, lesbian bars, and killers. It was much better then."

Heh...Sounds like something straight out of a Jack The Ripper thriller

[pwduvall]

I took a look at National Harbor on Google Street View. I reminds me Harbor East, which is (no surprise) east of the Inner Harbor. So if you get tired of the Inner Harbor (and most locals are), you can stroll over to Harbor East. If you have comfortable shoes on, you can walk to Fells Point, Canton, Federal Hill, or Locust Point. It will be a long time before the National Harbor area will be able to offer four miles of continuous waterfront development.

[diablo234]

The thing with National Harbor is that it is hemmed in by existing suburban residential neighborhoods on two sides and the beltway on the north side so you will not be able to have continuous waterfront development there with the limited connectivity between the areas. This is in comparison with the Inner Harbor in Baltimore which has encouraged reinvestment and redevelopment in the surrounding neighborhoods such as Little Italy, Federal Hill, Canton, Locust Point, Harbor East, etc because of the fact that the neighborhoods themselves are connected to each other thru the waterfront and existing street network.

[armory]

Originally Posted by P47P47

Is this a claim that Harborplace and the other tourist attractions at Baltimore's Inner Harbor (known until the 1970's as "the Basin") are historic and not contrived?


In John Waters' "Pink Flamingos" (1972), there's a scene showing Divine (as Babs Johnson) walking up the stairs at Federal Hill. You can see the pre-Harborplace Inner Harbor in the background. By that time the waterfront had been cleared of the piers and warehouses, and most of the other old buildings. In the director's commentary on the DVD, Waters says "...it was rotting piers, lesbian bars, and killers. It was much better then."

I remember going to see the Orioles play at Memorial stadium and stopping at Fell's Point for a bite and drink on the way home. I remember before IH was what it is. The streets in Fell's Point was like a war zone in places with crappy roads and hollowed out old buildings. Those buildings are now exclusive bars and other dives and the change is pretty dramatic when I go up there and drive around. I liked it when it was run down.

A question I had...How many posting here remember what IH was like back then?


I keep seeing a reference to gambling at NH...if it is such a draw why doesn't it exist at IH?

[UrbanScholar]

Originally Posted by armory

I remember going to see the Orioles play at Memorial stadium and stopping at Fell's Point for a bite and drink on the way home. I remember before IH was what it is. The streets in Fell's Point was like a war zone in places with crappy roads and hollowed out old buildings. Those buildings are now exclusive bars and other dives and the change is pretty dramatic when I go up there and drive around. I liked it when it was run down.

A question I had...How many posting here remember what IH was like back then?


I keep seeing a reference to gambling at NH...if it is such a draw why doesn't it exist at IH?

Ceasar's Baltimore, which opens next month, will be near the inner harbor. Approximately 2.5 miles away. For context, NH is approx 2 miles from the MGM site.

[BajanYankee]

I prefer the National Harbor. It's improved a lot since it first opened a few years ago.

I like the fact that the NH has those long piers where you can actually walk out into the river. The overall aesthetics and design are much better imo.