Considering Relocating to Washington State From Colorado (Seattle, Bellevue: 2015, apartment)

[MtnSurfer]

Originally Posted by DallasYankee

Hi everyone,

I have lived in the Denver suburbs for eleven mostly miserable years and am looking at the Seattle area and beyond for a possible 2022 relocation. Our situation is complicated but we should be able to sell our home of five and a half years for a healthy and hefty profit but only in 2022, barring a sudden downturn in the crazy market here.
..
I absolutely loathe Denver now and everything about it -the mountains, marijuana, the dry, arid steppe climate, the high altitude, the real lack of culture and artistic opportunities, etc.
I do not ski, snowboard, hike or climb mountains and actually hate the frigid winters and scorching summers along with the ever present blinding sun.I love yoga, pilates, barre, Zumba,and indoor fitness training. I am a gym rat LOL!

...

My husband enjoys the mountains and loves the ocean, so he would also be happy in the NW.
We are not politically radical and have a more moderate outlook, so we are not looking for a conservative state -just some where with energy and potential for growth, instead of stagnation.
Does it sound like Seattle or Washington state could be a good fit?

DallasYankee,

We also moved to CO and discovered it was not for us which included many of the reasons you've mentioned. Living a mile high+ in the dry, cold, high desert, schizophrenic climate on the continental divide is not for everyone. We much prefer sea level and being closer to the coast where the ocean helps to regulate the climate. We were able to sell our home and take a job transfer out west, thank God!

I think WA can offer you much of what you seek. We're originally from CA and so I can also see many things that might appeal to you there as well minus the extremely high cost of living. We don't live in Seattle. So, I cannot speak to its multiculturalism or lack thereof. But the Bay Area and LA definitely have that covered in spades, where we've lived prior. It just became too impacted for us and too $$$.

The question you'll really need to ask is how important is multiculturalism to you? And secondly, what is your baseline? If comparing to say NY or CA, that is a very high bar. If comparing Seattle to Denver, I just don't know if they are that different? Here's one of I'm sure many comparisons and rankings for diversity and multiculturalism depending on metrics used. There are several cities in the greater Seattle area that seem to rank pretty high like Kent and Renton. Most & Least Ethnically Diverse Cities in the U.S.


I also work as a software engineer, though I do so remotely. That is something which is really increasing more now due to Covid. Although, I actually started teleworking before Covid hit. The IT scene is the strongest in Seattle for 'in-person' opportunities. While Portland offers some good options as well, I wouldn't say multiculturalism is it's strong suit.

As far as your husband's love for the mountains and ocean, yes, the PNW is awesome. I love and enjoy those as well here quite a bit.

Derek

[wolfdog]

Originally Posted by StealthRabbit

Thus we will eternally disagree on this as my property FMV is precisely as it sits. And the properties I buy (over 40 in WA) are always bought as they sit. I haul away the trashed cars and clean up the 3ft deep piles of used diapers. The assessor (and neighbors) benefit greatly.

All my assets go to charity, so there is no 'profit' incentive for me, as mentioned... My personal home is of no investment value and has never been included in my net worth (because the tax man can nab it anytime they decide to do so, within their self imposed rules of course).

I spend hours on GIS wife's, subscribe to MLS, know all about calculating Std Dev of surrounding taxed properties and I assist many destitute elderly (often retired and without flexible income resources for over 30 yrs) with their tax valuations, and contesting if necessary. So you and i live on the opposite side of the tracks, and our value set is opposite. (I an an advocate of the poor, not "The State".)

OP seems to have a job and income sources, so WA property taxes will just be a part of their budgeting process. It is quite unlikely to be a material concern to them, as it was not to me when young and employed / getting revenue. I did not expect my taxes to double every year for 6 yrs after retirement. My bad, tax assessor wins (as always).

Yes, we will eternally disagree, I guess. And that's OK.
But again, taxing folks on their 'intention' for their property, is inherently unfair. And I can see how this would hit older Americans, on fixed incomes, with no intentions of selling, especially hard. I've got no problem tweaking the law, for better equity.
When we bought our condo(we're retired), 6 months later, our tax statement showed a market value $11,000 higher than what we paid. Why? Because subsequent to our purchase, two other nearly identical units sold for much more than what we paid.

Thanks for the conversation.

[StealthRabbit]

Who said anything about "Intention", certainly not me. I have farmed my place for decades, as did my parents and grandparents. The tax assessor in each case had 'intentions' beyond our own current active farming, and booted us off. Ironically NONE of the tax assessors 'intentions ever came' fruition on our previous farms.
My grandparents place absconded by taxes in the 1940s as 'developable' is still vacant.(Intended Tax revenues?)
My childhood ranch is now a county mountain bike park. (Intended Tax revenues?)
My last place force to leave in WA ("highest and best use = development) is a very tall patch of weeds.

My intentions (as they are now) are to live and enjoy the place I have cleared the land, designed, and built from scratch & sweat blood to create (NOT an easily replaceable condo / SFR). Obviously the tax assessor has 'different Intentions', for me.

Actively participating in helping people vacate their tax seized homes tends to adjust my compassion. The sheriff arrived at our home the day of my sis's HS graduation party, we we had a lot of help. Guests went home and got their stock trailers to help. My dad was disabled and in the hospital, he would have been devastated. Many people I have helped were families and kids crying... others are elderly who had hoped to die there. I have helped (3) people redeem their homes so they could die in the place they built brick by brick. I also do Hospice volunteering which is far more pleasant that tax evictions. Hospice has closure.

Op... keep your J-O-B and have a plan in place to pay 10x your current taxes once retired and without income, just in case your WA tax assessor takes a liking to it. I have had lunch with (4) of my assessors in different counties, I know their motivations, deliverable, and rewards. Not something I could sleep with, but that takes a 'special' kind of person.

Both my taxes and my HC were unexpectedly higher than my annual income after I retired

[DallasYankee]

Thanks everyone. My husband will chime in as well soon.
Our plan is to rent when we move to Washington, at least for a couple years. We're 'done' with home ownership for awhile. It would be preferable to just breathe; we need it. Washington may not be our final destination; our initial goal is to live there for 3 years or so, then re-evaluate: stay or go.

[StealthRabbit]

Originally Posted by DallasYankee

Thanks everyone. My husband will chime in as well soon.
Our plan is to rent when we move to Washington, at least for a couple years. We're 'done' with home ownership for awhile. It would be preferable to just breathe; we need it. Washington may not be our final destination; our initial goal is to live there for 3 years or so, then re-evaluate: stay or go.

Good idea, several tech friends left the USA last spring when Covid results showed a USA lag in economy. They have done very well in their new international jobs, and are very busy taking slack from USA limited output. I just had to award more business to Asia tech, due to USA missed deliverables.

Plenty of places in PNW to enjoy while renting, and will be nice to have that flexibility.

Just remember, live AND work in WA if you want to benefit from a no income tax state. If working in Oregon (or Idaho) it can be best to live there too, since you will be paying income taxes on any income earned while in the particular state. With WFH (from WA) you can have the benefit of no taxes if primary duties are performed from a WA location.

Vancouver, WA region avails both, but certainly consider the benefit of Vancouver BC if your aspirations are film, acting, drama presentations. Portland has a lot of music variety and drama groups, and a small film presence. Here is an informative local group we are a part of..https://hollywoodtheatre.org/, as well as https://cmnw.org/. And of course... https://artistsrep.org/

A large % of our activities and interests are in Portland, but we reside in WA. (for various reasons). Typical week, we might be in Portland 3-4x, but can go 4x / day if needed, or never. (as do some of our friends on WA side. ) It is really quite convenient, close, accessible, and varied.

We have a few friends who live and work in VO roles in Vancouver, BC. You could likely commute via air for those gigs if DH finds work, in Portland area. There is quite a lot of Tech in BC Fraser Valley and I expect a lot of lucrative start-ups funded by Asia and Indian nationals living in Vancouver BC area.

[wolfdog]

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

Unfortunately, that is the crux of the problem for WA seniors, not quibbling over assessment valuations which some could effectively argue are rigged from the start in favor of gov't assessors. Stealth has *evidence* his property won't sell at that price, not that anyone really cares. Yes, the laws do need to change and Washingtonians have already voted on this before. But it was somehow overruled.

Here are similar new bills designed to help seniors. Both OR and CA have much better tax laws for seniors. We'll see if they can pass. Fortunato introduces three bills to help seniors qualify for property tax exemptions

Derek

Can you steer me to that 'evidence"? I care.
And I know folks like to beat up on their assessors, by the assessment laws are drawn up and passed by the Dept of Revenue. Assessor just carries out the law.
But I admit I don't know WA rules as well as OR rules.

[MtnSurfer]

Originally Posted by wolfdog

Can you steer me to that 'evidence"? I care.
And I know folks like to beat up on their assessors, by the assessment laws are drawn up and passed by the Dept of Revenue. Assessor just carries out the law.
But I admit I don't know WA rules as well as OR rules.

Sure, it was right in Stealth's reply to your original question here:

Originally Posted by StealthRabbit

"Do you think you could you sell your properties for at least the assessor's Market value on each?"
Of course not, that is why I am in Olympia every yr at Tax Court. I have advertised and offered my props for 60% of assessment and not had a bite.

I realize the assessor is just carrying out the laws. The problem arises when the current system including its laws, work against the very citizens it is designed to protect and serve. When long term home owners are driven out of their homes during their retirement years due to taxes gone wild with no annual caps or other safeguards, something is inherently flawed in that system. It's really that simple and most would agree its unfair. Oregon and California both have tax laws in place to protect against this. In WA, its open season with no regard for the owner, their income or status, only whatever prevailing market factors dictate at that time.

So, its like the cop that throws the kid in prison for 5+ years of hard time because he found an ounce of weed on him and some outstanding traffic tickets. He's just enforcing the law as screwed up or overly harsh as it may be. Or the sheriff that shows up to evict a long-term elderly couple who built their home with their own hands because they cannot afford the latest exorbitant tax hikes. Who's fault is that crime against humanity?

Does either seem right or justified?

Derek

[wolfdog]

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

Sure, it was right in Stealth's reply to your original question here:



I realize the assessor is just carrying out the laws. The problem arises when the current system including its laws, work against the very citizens it is designed to protect and serve. When long term home owners are driven out of their homes during their retirement years due to taxes gone wild with no annual caps or other safeguards, something is inherently flawed in that system. It's really that simple and most would agree its unfair. Oregon and California both have tax laws in place to protect against this. In WA, its open season with no regard for the owner, their income or status, only whatever prevailing market factors dictate at that time.

So, its like the cop that throws the kid in prison for 5+ years of hard time because he found an ounce of weed on him and some outstanding traffic tickets. He's just enforcing the law as screwed up or overly harsh as it may be. Or the sheriff that shows up to evict a long-term elderly couple who built their home with their own hands because they cannot afford the latest exorbitant tax hikes. Who's fault is that crime against humanity?

Does either seem right or justified?

Derek

I took his statement to mean he advertised in some way other than the open market, like not through MLS, full exposure to the market, for a reasonable time. But OK. I remember similar things argued before our appeals Board. "I put an ad in the local paper for a month. Not even a bite." doesn't cut it.
Look, his value may well be inflated. Assessors don't do a full-blown fee appraisal on every property, which would yield the most accurate value. Way too costly. They likely look a sales trends in a neighborhood, and apply any indicated percent market adjustment to every property in that neighborhood.
As for the sweat equity issue, I had a few folks come to their hearing saying they built the house by themselves, say, for $200,000. But none of them said they would take just $200,000, if it now appraises for $300,000. If they instead hired a builder to build the same quality house for $300,000, both houses would still appraise for $300,000.

Justified? Again, I'm not defending anything the State does. I've only lived here a year. I don't pay much attention. But I'd certainly welcome a discount for my status 'group'. I was a 65+ 30% disabled vet, but I got no break in Oregon. And I didn't bring any kids into this world, but I've been paying for their education for 40+ years.

[MtnSurfer]

Originally Posted by wolfdog

I took his statement to mean he advertised in some way other than the open market, like not through MLS, full exposure to the market, for a reasonable time. But OK. I remember similar things argued before our appeals Board. "I put an ad in the local paper for a month. Not even a bite." doesn't cut it.
Look, his value may well be inflated. Assessors don't do a full-blown fee appraisal on every property, which would yield the most accurate value. Way too costly. They likely look a sales trends in a neighborhood, and apply any indicated percent market adjustment to every property in that neighborhood.
As for the sweat equity issue, I had a few folks come to their hearing saying they built the house by themselves, say, for $200,000. But none of them said they would take just $200,000, if it now appraises for $300,000. If they instead hired a builder to build the same quality house for $300,000, both houses would still appraise for $300,000.

Justified? Again, I'm not defending anything the State does. I've only lived here a year. I don't pay much attention. But I'd certainly welcome a discount for my status 'group'. I was a 65+ 30% disabled vet, but I got no break in Oregon. And I didn't bring any kids into this world, but I've been paying for their education for 40+ years.

I'm also an old RE review appraiser who worked for a bank. So I understand the market approach, drivers and inflated valuations. I saw them all the time, actually. The limited time to get too many done, broad brush strokes applied along with creative extrapolation can very easily get things wrong. I think its even more apparent in unique land situations with fewer comps further out. Its sorta like building a house of cards. There's not much holding it up. Then, someone has to believe the story because the paperwork looks official. Our bank rejected many such appraisals or required more solid evidence to justify the higher numbers. Appraisers loved to use outliers to artificially pump up their numbers.

Since assessors don't have to provide a fully substantiated market appraisal on each assessed home, they are much more prone to error. Its simply more of an educated guess and less evidence based given the broader strokes applied. We never trusted those which were even less accurate most of the time than even rookie appraisals.

I hear what you're saying about putting the house on the market. It's not like you can simply tell a few friends. But that would help to substantiate his claims even though he doesn't like to use realtors. Putting it MLS for a period of time would provide better proof if that hadn't been done before.

Derek

[Seacove]

Originally Posted by DallasYankee

Thanks everyone. My husband will chime in as well soon.
Our plan is to rent when we move to Washington, at least for a couple years. We're 'done' with home ownership for awhile. It would be preferable to just breathe; we need it. Washington may not be our final destination; our initial goal is to live there for 3 years or so, then re-evaluate: stay or go.

So you're not "considering", you're planning to move here regardless? Were any other locations seriously considered? Seattle is extremely different than Denver, things like COL, weather, length of day, how sunny Denver is, etc.