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* At least one month with an average temperature below 18°C but above 0°C
* At least one month with an average temperature above 22°C
* Some rainfall at least in summer (otherwise it's a Mediterranean climate - though you might call it "Dry summer subtropical")...but my idea of a subtropical summer is warm and humid
I just see it as a general term. Hong kong, The US South ,much of Australia etc are obvious subtropical climates. In NZ a coldest month with an average of 12C/54F or warmer was regarded as subtropical - less than 1% of NZ.
I also see it as a way of describing winters that are sufficiently warm enough for a large variety of subtropical vegetation. I not talking about a few hardy palms and the odd protected fruit tree. More like dozens of subtropical fruits and palms, steady grass growth all winter, lots of flowering plants all winter and lots of insect activity all winter. Also the weather should still contain a high proportion of warm fronts, with warm rain, and still a good amount of convective cloud activity.
I think on the US East Coast, it would be subtropical from Charleston, SC down, and on the West Coast it would be San Francisco down. Calling NYC or Washington, DC subtropical is a big misnomer in my opinion.
But many types of sub-tropical vegetation can actually take quite cool/cold weather. The Scilly Isles, like the rest of the UK, are cool temperate maritime.
Where I live I can grow many of the things that grow on the Scilly Isles, but my climate is nothing like sub-tropical. A mild winter climate doesn't make a sub-tropical climate, you need fairly warm daytime temperatures during the winter too...
Sub-tropical to me means warm year round, with cooler weather during the winter months, but never truly cold...
Places that I would consider to be sub-tropical would be places like Brisbane, Hong Kong, San Diego & the Canary Islands.
I agree completely about your definitiion of subtropical except for clarification on the ability to grow subtropical vegetation in cool climates.
While the UK can get some citrus to survive outdoors, they certainly won't reach their full potential, or thrive in any meaningful way in the UK. The Scilly Isles and probably where you live are in a warmer USDA zone than a place like Orlando, FL. Orlando is in zone 9b. Meaning the avg winter minimum temp reached is around 28F. Some years they don't go below freezing at all, other well into the 20's. That being said, there are huge orange groves all over the place, and many more subtropical plants thrive and reach their full growth there.
I've yet to see commercial orange groves in the UK. In fact, most orange trees in the UK look pretty bad off. I can't even imagine the fruit being any good or the trees producing much. The diff of course is that Orlando will be in the 60's and 70's for high temps most of the winter, whereas the UK will be in the 40's with a minimal amount of sunshine. Citrus trees loves sunshine. They are supposed to get 6 to 7 hours of full sun a day. So while the winter min may go down into the 20'sF in Orlando, the daytime will usually be sunny and temp going up well above freezing.
I would doubt the UK has roadside stands selling fresh picked locally grown oranges as they do all over the Orlando area. I believe they only grow with very special care in the UK, and even then don't produce bucket loads of fruit.
The pic below is from the citrus growers forum. The guy who posted the pic has a variety of citrus trees on his property growing in the ground near Charleston, SC. As you can see from his quote under the pic, he got all those oranges from one branch. Charleston area is even colder than Orlando being in zone 9a, but again much warmer daytime temps than where you live.
While veg is an important indicator of climate, it depends on how "well" the veg grows and not just that it survives winter.
I just see it as a general term. Hong kong, The US South ,much of Australia etc are obvious subtropical climates. In NZ a coldest month with an average of 12C/54F or warmer was regarded as subtropical - less than 1% of NZ.
I also see it as a way of describing winters that are sufficiently warm enough for a large variety of subtropical vegetation. I not talking about a few hardy palms and the odd protected fruit tree. More like dozens of subtropical fruits and palms, steady grass growth all winter, lots of flowering plants all winter and lots of insect activity all winter. Also the weather should still contain a high proportion of warm fronts, with warm rain, and still a good amount of convective cloud activity.
Joe, even in Orlando they have to protect citrus trees in winter sometimes if a severe cold front comes thru. The misleading part of this is that citrus growing in a place like Orlando can be killed (the tree) because the trees sometimes don't get enough cold temps at night to become cold hardy enough to survive temps below 28F. They've lost trees in Orlando area when they have had really warm weather for weeks in early winter, then have gotten hit with temps in the lower 20's and the trees did not survive. So, I think it is a little misleading to say that an area that has to protect trees occasionally does not count as subtropical.
I agree completely about your definitiion of subtropical except for clarification on the ability to grow subtropical vegetation in cool climates.
While the UK can get some citrus to survive outdoors, they certainly won't reach their full potential, or thrive in any meaningful way in the UK. The Scilly Isles and probably where you live are in a warmer USDA zone than a place like Orlando, FL. Orlando is in zone 9b. Meaning the avg winter minimum temp reached is around 28F. Some years they don't go below freezing at all, other well into the 20's. That being said, there are huge orange groves all over the place, and many more subtropical plants thrive and reach their full growth there.
I've yet to see commercial orange groves in the UK. In fact, most orange trees in the UK look pretty bad off. I can't even imagine the fruit being any good or the trees producing much. The diff of course is that Orlando will be in the 60's and 70's for high temps most of the winter, whereas the UK will be in the 40's with a minimal amount of sunshine. Citrus trees loves sunshine. They are supposed to get 6 to 7 hours of full sun a day. So while the winter min may go down into the 20'sF in Orlando, the daytime will usually be sunny and temp going up well above freezing.
I would doubt the UK has roadside stands selling fresh picked locally grown oranges as they do all over the Orlando area. I believe they only grow with very special care in the UK, and even then don't produce bucket loads of fruit.
While veg is an important indicator of climate, it depends on how "well" the veg grows and not just that it survives winter.
I think you have misunderstood what I was saying.
When I said
Quote:
But many types of sub-tropical vegetation can actually take quite cool/cold weather
I meant that you cannot judge a climate solely on what vegetation grows there. I wasn't insinuating that places with palms etc.. are sub-tropical, I was saying that doesn't necessarily make them that warm...
Citrus can take quite low temperatures, but they need fairly consistantly high temperatures to produce fruit, that's why certain citrus grow, but don't fruit that well in the UK...
No where in the UK has anything even close to a sub-tropical climate, the Scilly Isles are cool temperate, they just don't get much frost, so they can grow more tender plants... The Scilly's are technically zone 10a & where I live technically zone 9b, but our cold daytime highs in the winter & lack of proper heat in the summer is more the limiting factor of what will/wont grow here...
Joe, even in Orlando they have to protect citrus trees in winter sometimes if a severe cold front comes thru. The misleading part of this is that citrus growing in a place like Orlando can be killed (the tree) because the trees sometimes don't get enough cold temps at night to become cold hardy enough to survive temps below 28F. They've lost trees in Orlando area when they have had really warm weather for weeks in early winter, then have gotten hit with temps in the lower 20's and the trees did not survive. So, I think it is a little misleading to say that an area that has to protect trees occasionally does not count as subtropical.
Orlando comes under the obviously subtropical category for me. The fact that it can get occasional cold snaps, is just a quirk of it's particular climate.
I was really meaning places like NYC, where subtropical vegetation is rare and freezing temps and snow are routine. A subtropical climate should enable growth in all seasons, not just in summer. If NYC could grow potatoes in winter, then I would change my mind.
Subtropical are just transitional climates in my view.
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