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@Yn0hTnA the books even say its a theory. the cold epoch is a theory. don't get me wrong i'm finding it interesting but i'm not going to bash my peers with rude comments, make him feel completely wrong, and never compromise and never meet them halfway and never admit a mistake. you need a PhD to justify acting like that
anyway...
we have little knowledge of what our world's climate was like before ~1800 AD. we have methods that give us "ideas" of what the past may have been like but the only records we have are scribblings made by people with the equivalence of a 5th grade education. and these records also came alongside reports of sea monsters destroying ships. these events might have happened but it was likely exaggerated.
People just need to use their common sense in these kinds of things. Yes, data is a powerful tool, but one cannot let it override common sense, logic, and other bits of relevant info.
Many things are even more tiring, such as hearing fools an ocean away harp about supposed cold experienced in a place they have never been to, or seeing people let data override their common sense. You also will not see any notable scientist, or other credible source claiming that the South is the subtropical region most prone to cold extremes.
It is up to me to debunk the foolish claims on this website conjured by these amateur climatologists.
Anyways, this is a link to a previous post where I provide some information about the Cold Epoch phenomenon over North America. These are not my favorite sources about the phenomenon, but they do describe in detail the weather pattern changes experienced in the continent, from a natural state to warmth towards greater propensity to cold: //www.city-data.com/forum/36280908-post76.html
Here, you will see examples of this phenomenon occurring over various other continents:
No, the Cold Epoch perturbed the jet stream in a way that the tendency towards eastwards dipping became greater.
You are just mad that your pea-brain is not grasping the raw utter logic and common sense in the concepts put forth to you. Just mere sour grapes on your part.
Your request has been futfilled; see above in this post.
Plus, keep in mind the fact that record lows and temp averages for the US South are skewed towards being colder due to the effects of the Cold Epoch, which accumulated in the data over the years. At a natural climactic state, it would be impossible for places like Houston, and Albany to be seeing such record lows; their hardiness zones would be at least a full zone, or more higher, and more consistent as well, under a natural climactic state. In fact, even with the Cold Epoch, much of Houston, and its coastal areas, have been functioning as high 9B/10A climates.
Plus, keep in mind the fact that record lows and temp averages for the US South are skewed towards being colder due to the effects of the Cold Epoch, which accumulated in the data over the years. At a natural climactic state, it would be impossible for places like Houston, and Albany to be seeing such record lows; their hardiness zones would be at least a full zone, or more higher, and more consistent as well, under a natural climactic state. In fact, even with the Cold Epoch, much of Houston, and its coastal areas, have been functioning as high 9B/10A climates.[/quote]
K so this cold epoch has happened before now my question is where is the evidence of what we are seeing is a cold epoch and not normal. And I want as much credible evidence that you can put out as you can. The only evidence I can think of for a cold epoch is that Sabal palms once existed naturally as far north as southern virginia. I will try to find the article about this later though.
You are still heavily favoring oceanic. The oceanic palms survive long term and never die, while even though they may grow quicker in the Southeast, they will die and leave you with a large dead palm. That is far worse than having a palm still alive and growing.
The point of both of your posts as I see it, is that people in the Southeast, save extreme south FL, should not grow palms at all. Maybe they should just plant nothing but deciduous trees to match the heavy continental nature of the climate. No wonder you see palms being planted all over Europe in cities as far north as Sweden, yet none in inland south cities.
I have seen palm trees here in east Tennessee. Do they belong here? Well no, but yet you can grow one. Some species can handle the occasional cold snap. I have seen plenty of tropical looking greenery in some yards, as some of them can handle our climate. I do agree with the posters who say the south is different from other subtropical regions in the world. That does not mean I think we are a continental climate as this really is a warm place overall. The northern US has such a different climate and its trees and plants are quite different as well. I believe we are subtropical, just with a bit of a twist. It is just all that landmass to our north that allows some very northern air to penetrate further south than it normally would in other parts of the world. The US as a whole is quite far south to experience the kind of brutal winters that it does. Even the so called far north places like Minnesota or Michigan etc are not really that far north. They are at around 45 latitude and in other parts of the world those latitudes are quite warm, even subtropical. Here in North America they are cool in the summer and brutal cold in the winter. Again this is thanks to all that landmass to our north.
I feel like much of this could be solved with a transitional "temperate" zone. This should go in about the area where it's ambiguous whether a climate is subtropical or continental.
Yeah, a temperate zone would be good. I just don't think that temperate should be between continental and subtropical. Continental, at least to me, implies extremes, not necessarily being cold. I think it acts too much as a place to throw cold climates in, whether they fit the description or not. I would hesitate to call coastal Maine continental. It's a cold climate but it doesn't have the hot ( or even warm) summers that should be necessary to warrant a continental climate.
K so this cold epoch has happened before now my question is where is the evidence of what we are seeing is a cold epoch and not normal. And I want as much credible evidence that you can put out as you can. The only evidence I can think of for a cold epoch is that Sabal palms once existed naturally as far north as southern virginia. I will try to find the article about this later though.
I am still in the process of searching through for better articles describing the matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72
I have seen palm trees here in east Tennessee. Do they belong here? Well no, but yet you can grow one. Some species can handle the occasional cold snap. I have seen plenty of tropical looking greenery in some yards, as some of them can handle our climate. I do agree with the posters who say the south is different from other subtropical regions in the world. That does not mean I think we are a continental climate as this really is a warm place overall. The northern US has such a different climate and its trees and plants are quite different as well. I believe we are subtropical, just with a bit of a twist. It is just all that landmass to our north that allows some very northern air to penetrate further south than it normally would in other parts of the world. The US as a whole is quite far south to experience the kind of brutal winters that it does. Even the so called far north places like Minnesota or Michigan etc are not really that far north. They are at around 45 latitude and in other parts of the world those latitudes are quite warm, even subtropical. Here in North America they are cool in the summer and brutal cold in the winter. Again this is thanks to all that landmass to our north.
Even with the landmass, at a natural climactic state, such cold would not be getting experienced over North America, or it at least wont be as bad. The Cold Epoch, however, perturbs the jet-stream in a way towards a tendency to dip over the East, bringing the harsh cold snaps that people on this forum talk about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingGalah!
There are actually two palms native to Europe, Chamaerops humilis & Phoenix theophrasti...
At USDA 7B, that Phoenix palm is quite hardy; those Greek Isles in the palm's native range had to have experienced cold severe enough to warrant hardiness to such levels at some point in the ecosystem's history.
I am still in the process of searching through for better articles describing the matter.
thats not evidence, thats just evidence your not the only person that believes it...
evidence would be data...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA
At USDA 7B, that Phoenix palm is quite hardy; those Greek Isles in the palm's native range had to have experienced cold severe enough to warrant hardiness to such levels at some point in the ecosystem's history.
i don't know of any Phoenix that can live in 7b long-term. most of them are hardy to around 10°F to 20°F. i'm not familiar with the Phoenix theophrasti but from what i read hardiness varies and you are really taking a chance below 8b.
Yeah, a temperate zone would be good. I just don't think that temperate should be between continental and subtropical. Continental, at least to me, implies extremes, not necessarily being cold. I think it acts too much as a place to throw cold climates in, whether they fit the description or not. I would hesitate to call coastal Maine continental. It's a cold climate but it doesn't have the hot ( or even warm) summers that should be necessary to warrant a continental climate.
So parts of Siberia with cooler summers than Maine, wouldn't be continental?
At USDA 7B, that Phoenix palm is quite hardy; those Greek Isles in the palm's native range had to have experienced cold severe enough to warrant hardiness to such levels at some point in the ecosystem's history.
Once again you are talking nonsense, Phoenix theophrasti is not hardy to 7b! 8b would be pushing it
And the palms native to the US south include much hardier palms, including the worlds hardiest palm, Rhapidophylum hystrix, so by your own reasoning the US south must have at some point in the ecosystems history have experienced even colder temperatures than southern Europe ever has, quite the opposite of what you continue (to incorrectly) bleat about...
people do plant them in 7b and even 7a areas and they do survive but i suspect a very bad winter will kill them. (the inherent risk when planting beyond the native range)
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