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Old 03-16-2022, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Centre Wellington, ON
5,900 posts, read 6,109,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed's Mountain View Post
I wouldn't consider Lexington subtropical either so the question is not really pertinent. As GTB365 said, the winter means have to be much warmer: at least 6°C, if not higher, for a place to be properly subtropical (IMO).
6C is reasonable if you want the subtropical climate to be able to support a significant amount of greenery through winter. A lot of trees/perennials that can handle a bit of frost but nothing too intense will be able to survive the winters (ex figs, southern Magnolias, kiwis), and you can generally overwinter a lot of cold hardy crops in the brassica family (broccoli, cabbage, radish). You start seeing palms that can survive, eucalyptus, ferns that can remain green through the winter, a lot of evergreen broadleaf plants.

Little Rock, AR; Huntsville, AL; Memphis, TN; Greenville, SC; Charlotte, NC; Raleigh, NC; Norfolk, VA... these would all fall short of that 6C January cut-off. They still have 8-9 months of 10C+ mean temps and 4-5 months of 22C+ mean temps though. Considering how cold the humid continental classification can get, it would have to be divided up some more. I think trying to divide the humid non-oceanic into these ranges could work

Tropical (negligible risk of frost, no need for home heating, no temperature triggered dormant season)

Subtropical (has a cold season with some plants going dormant and others growing, have a lot of evergreen broadleaf plants and can have at least some types of palms)
-Can subdivide into two zones according to winter temperatures... 6-10C winters ex Atlanta still looks significantly different from 14-18C winters ex Tampa or Orlando).

Temperate (prime climate for deciduous plants, 4 seasons with plants going by and large dormant in winter, snow cover typically inconsistent through winter, warm enough for many birds to overwinter, significant increase in biodiversity compared to boreal/taiga)
-cold winter/hemiboreal (ex Eastern Europe, Great Lakes, Yellow River valley) vs warm temperate (ex Central China, Upland South, Mid-Atlantic, northern Italy)

Boreal/taiga (winters sufficiently cold to favour conifers over deciduous trees, consistent winter snow cover)
-permafrost (ex Yellowknife, large swaths of Siberia) vs permafrost free (ex Timmins, Edmonton, Finland)

Arctic (too cold for trees, can only have mosses/lichen and a few herbaceous plants, maybe a limited selection of stunted hardy shrubs)
-ice cap vs tundra

Splitting areas that I would describe as "temperate" and lumping them in with either subtropical and taiga/continental/boreal results in a very extreme range of conditions within the humid temperate and humid subtropical categories.

Like... a place that gets an average of 9ft of snow per year (Akita, Japan) is in the same humid subtropical climate zone as a place that hasn't had a frost since 2010 (Port Charlotte, FL).

The humid continental is at least split into Dfb and Dfa but I'm not sure how I feel about saying cities in upland valleys of SE Europe like Maribor and Sofia are too cold to be in the same zone as Minneapolis (Dfa) so they have to share a spot with perma-frost covered Moosonee in Dfb.
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Old 03-17-2022, 04:33 AM
 
Location: Sydney, Australia
11,655 posts, read 12,966,685 times
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When it's wet, it is too wet. When it's dry, it is too dry. In other words, more floods and bushfires in La Nina and El Nino phases, respectively.
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Old 03-17-2022, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
5,742 posts, read 3,519,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
6C is reasonable if you want the subtropical climate to be able to support a significant amount of greenery through winter. A lot of trees/perennials that can handle a bit of frost but nothing too intense will be able to survive the winters (ex figs, southern Magnolias, kiwis), and you can generally overwinter a lot of cold hardy crops in the brassica family (broccoli, cabbage, radish). You start seeing palms that can survive, eucalyptus, ferns that can remain green through the winter, a lot of evergreen broadleaf plants.

Little Rock, AR; Huntsville, AL; Memphis, TN; Greenville, SC; Charlotte, NC; Raleigh, NC; Norfolk, VA... these would all fall short of that 6C January cut-off. They still have 8-9 months of 10C+ mean temps and 4-5 months of 22C+ mean temps though. Considering how cold the humid continental classification can get, it would have to be divided up some more. I think trying to divide the humid non-oceanic into these ranges could work

Tropical (negligible risk of frost, no need for home heating, no temperature triggered dormant season)

Subtropical (has a cold season with some plants going dormant and others growing, have a lot of evergreen broadleaf plants and can have at least some types of palms)
-Can subdivide into two zones according to winter temperatures... 6-10C winters ex Atlanta still looks significantly different from 14-18C winters ex Tampa or Orlando).

Temperate (prime climate for deciduous plants, 4 seasons with plants going by and large dormant in winter, snow cover typically inconsistent through winter, warm enough for many birds to overwinter, significant increase in biodiversity compared to boreal/taiga)
-cold winter/hemiboreal (ex Eastern Europe, Great Lakes, Yellow River valley) vs warm temperate (ex Central China, Upland South, Mid-Atlantic, northern Italy)

Boreal/taiga (winters sufficiently cold to favour conifers over deciduous trees, consistent winter snow cover)
-permafrost (ex Yellowknife, large swaths of Siberia) vs permafrost free (ex Timmins, Edmonton, Finland)

Arctic (too cold for trees, can only have mosses/lichen and a few herbaceous plants, maybe a limited selection of stunted hardy shrubs)
-ice cap vs tundra

Splitting areas that I would describe as "temperate" and lumping them in with either subtropical and taiga/continental/boreal results in a very extreme range of conditions within the humid temperate and humid subtropical categories.

Like... a place that gets an average of 9ft of snow per year (Akita, Japan) is in the same humid subtropical climate zone as a place that hasn't had a frost since 2010 (Port Charlotte, FL).

The humid continental is at least split into Dfb and Dfa but I'm not sure how I feel about saying cities in upland valleys of SE Europe like Maribor and Sofia are too cold to be in the same zone as Minneapolis (Dfa) so they have to share a spot with perma-frost covered Moosonee in Dfb.
I feel places with winter means between 0-6 °C* should be in their own category. The term subcontinental was coined the last time this topic came up. Whence:

< 0 °C Continental
0-6 °C Subcontinental
6-18 °C Subtropical
> 18 °C Tropical

*Actually I prefer 9°C because of the symmetry it offers but whichever.
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Old 03-17-2022, 12:13 PM
 
2,391 posts, read 1,072,972 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed's Mountain View Post
I feel places with winter means between 0-6 °C* should be in their own category. The term subcontinental was coined the last time this topic came up. Whence:

< 0 °C Continental
0-6 °C Subcontinental
6-18 °C Subtropical
> 18 °C Tropical

*Actually I prefer 9°C because of the symmetry it offers but whichever.
I agree.

0-6c Subcontinental

New York City 1c
Philadelphia 1c
Washington,DC 3c
Nashville 4c
Little Rock 4c
Oklahoma City 3c

Cincinnati and St Louis ....borderline averaging at or slightly below 0c

Memphis...Raleigh ...Charlotte ...all average about 5.5c ...are borderline too


6-18c Subtropical

Virginia Beach 6c
Atlanta 7c
Dallas 8c
Savannah 10c
Charleston, SC 9c
Houston 12c
New Orleans 12c

Maybe there should be a "semitropical" climate zone...

12-18c

Corpus Christi,TX 14c
Brownsville,TX 17c
Orlando 16c
Tampa 17c

Each zone having a 6 degree range.
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Old 03-19-2022, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Markham, Ontario
585 posts, read 245,750 times
Reputation: 301
Delayed seasons are becoming more of a thing. Summer extending into fall and winter into spring. Frustrating to say the least.

I miss cold/snowy December's and hate all these delayed spring's in Southern Ontario.
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Old 03-20-2022, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Bom Jardim da Serra, Santa Catarina
208 posts, read 152,887 times
Reputation: 161
I remember back in the 2000s when it used to rain almost every summer afternoon, and somewhere in the early 2010s the summers became drier. Heatwaves are also lasting longer.

Autumns remained mostly unchanged

Springs since the late 2010s started to get massive temperature variations. One day the temperature decreased from 30C to 2C in just 12 hours. And since the early 2010s storms became much more intense, we even had a tornado in 2018.

The winters seemed colder in the 2000s but that’s because my perception has changed.
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Old 03-21-2022, 01:39 AM
 
1 posts, read 673 times
Reputation: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
You've got to be joking!
And meanwhile you'd treat that threshold like the Gospel if it were applied to a European locale, you anti-American hypocrite.
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Old 03-21-2022, 07:14 PM
 
Location: San Diego
2,982 posts, read 1,567,327 times
Reputation: 2225
Urban warming and climate change over the years have caused the temps inch upward in San Diego where I live, especially recently.



Last month it hit 91F or 33C, a record for February, and records go back to 1875.
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Old 03-24-2022, 11:30 AM
 
241 posts, read 137,251 times
Reputation: 72
For the Denver area, the changes are noticeable more in precipitation patterns. We are more likely recently to have drier, warmer autumns and cooler, wetter springs, meaning that both the first and last snow dates are moving forward in the long term.
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Old 03-27-2022, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Centre Wellington, ON
5,900 posts, read 6,109,153 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memph View Post
Hamilton Royal Botanical Gardens and Vineland Station to get a sense of things at the west end of Lake Ontario.


Increase from 1980-2010 to 2009-2022 (so averages centered on 1995 and 2015, so change over 20 years more or less)

Toronto Pearson: +0.9C
Toronto Island: +0.7C
Toronto Annex: +0.5C
Hamilton RBG: +0.4C
Vineland Station: +0.4C

I suspect the reason Pearson saw the biggest increase was the it had a lot of urban development compared to the other locations that have had relatively similar land use from 1980 to present.

Annual Mean Sept 2009 to Feb 2022
9.9C Toronto Annex
9.7C Burlington Canal
9.5C Oakville TWN
9.2C Toronto Island
9.1C Toronto Pearson
9.0C Hamilton RBG
Did a few more stations in SW Ontario



Windsor Riverside is now approaching three 22.0C+ months and even April is approaching the 10.0C mean temp mark. Even May is looking rather summer-like now.


Toronto Pearson: +0.9C
Delhi: +0.7C
Toronto Island: +0.7C
Toronto Annex: +0.5C
Hamilton RBG: +0.4C
Vineland Station: +0.4C
Waterloo Region Airport: +0.4C
Windsor Riverside: +0.4C


Annual Mean Sept 2009 to Feb 2022
11.1C Windsor Riverside
9.9C Toronto Annex
9.7C Burlington Canal
9.5C Oakville TWN
9.2C Toronto Island
9.1C Toronto Pearson
9.0C Hamilton RBG
8.5C Delhi
7.4C Waterloo Region Airport
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