What is it like to experience 4 distinct seasons? (rainfall, months, North)

[memph]

Originally Posted by Pincho-toot

I see those flowers as late spring/early summer flowers. Also it does depend on your zone. For example... in Minnesota, northern catalpa (my favourite tree) blooms in June, and its a very late bloomer for deciduous trees, often being bare well into May even. But in Texas, the catalpa blooms in April, maybe early May. But in Texas, most spring bloomers bloom in March-early April while as here its late April-May. Tulips though, are exclusively spring flowers. They may last into early summer, but in a standard 4 season climate, they start and bloom in spring. Around here, the tulip leaves poke out between late March-mid April and they usually bloom between mid-late April, maybe May during a really cold spring.

Last year was the first time I can recall tulips being in bloom in June, but...

A. Last year was a very chilly spring
B. These particular tulips still bloomed in May, it just so happens the flower lasted into the beginning of June. Nothing crazy. Most the tulips have been done blooming by then.

May is a transitional month, so its not crazy to have summery weather in May but overall, the "cool" of spring moderates it. Even down south. I have seen highs in the 60s in Texas as late as LATE May... but never June! And as I mentioned earlier, I was genuinely surprised by how common it is for my hometown of Miami to reach the 60s in May... Though almost unheard of in June.

Early June is still distinctly cooler than July though. Zone 5 areas of Ontario like Kitchener, Guelph, Elora, Barrie, Peterborough, can get night time temperatures in the high 30s/low 40s then during a cold front with a clear night. In July those conditions would result in a night time low in the high 40s/low 50s.

Even at Toronto Pearson, June can get fairly cool temperatures (although so can late August) - not cold by any means, but daytime temperatures in the high 60s/low 70s with low humidity and dew points <35F (last June we even got a 22F dew point). That to me feels fairly spring-like, as opposed to July when it's much more consistently hot and humid, if it's dry, it's often hot, and if it's cool (ex daytime low 70s), it's often accompanied with a thunderstorm and high humidity.

[Pincho-toot]

Originally Posted by memph

Early June is still distinctly cooler than July though. Zone 5 areas of Ontario like Kitchener, Guelph, Elora, Barrie, Peterborough, can get night time temperatures in the high 30s/low 40s then during a cold front with a clear night. In July those conditions would result in a night time low in the high 40s/low 50s.

Even at Toronto Pearson, June can get fairly cool temperatures (although so can late August) - not cold by any means, but daytime temperatures in the high 60s/low 70s with low humidity and dew points <35F (last June we even got a 22F dew point). That to me feels fairly spring-like, as opposed to July when it's much more consistently hot and humid, if it's dry, it's often hot, and if it's cool (ex daytime low 70s), it's often accompanied with a thunderstorm and high humidity.

Well yea, thats the same as early December typically being warmer than January. Early December here is not unheard of to still have brown November like scenery esp if its been warmer/drier.

[jcp123]

I don’t particularly care for all the seasons. Winter least of all. A lot of folks make a big hoopla about how nice it is, and I’m not sure what specifically makes it so appealing to some folks. The temperatures change slowly enough that it’s not a major shock to get used to the temperatures, provided you’re tolerant of those temperatures or weather conditions to begin with.

[simonusa3]

I can't speak to seasons in Europe or Canada, but IMO in the United States, esp south of 40 latitude, there really is not 4 seasons. There really is only 2 seasons; A warm to hot season from April to October and a cool to cold season from November through March. Of course, places like Florida and California really have only slight seasonal change (mostly a dry and wet season). Maybe there is more true seasonal climates in the far north from Montana to Maine.

[memph]

Originally Posted by simonusa3

I can't speak to seasons in Europe or Canada, but IMO in the United States, esp south of 40 latitude, there really is not 4 seasons. There really is only 2 seasons; A warm to hot season from April to October and a cool to cold season from November through March. Of course, places like Florida and California really have only slight seasonal change (mostly a dry and wet season). Maybe there is more true seasonal climates in the far north from Montana to Maine.

I would say that Montreal and Minneapolis are the classic 4 seasons climates in North America. Summers are warm and hot enough to be distinct from spring and fall, and winter is cold enough to also be a distinct season and have the classic winter features of freezing temperatures and consistent snowpack.

The Ohio Valley and Mid Atlantic largely lacks the classic winter features. It can experience large snowfalls and harsh freezes, but those tend to not be long lasting and milder weather tends to dominate.

Even here in Oakville there is a distinct difference compared to Montreal or Minneapolis. Winters are predominantly cool to cold but with significantly less consistency than those two cities, with frequent thaws, more winter rain than winter snow (due to precipitation mostly coming from Texas lows), especially during mild winters like this year's. I would say that 4 seasons is still the best way to describe our climate, but it's not as much of a perfect 4 seasons climate as Montreal and Minneapolis.

[Can't think of username]

Originally Posted by Ed's Mountain

Either way though, it's an effect that's present virtually everywhere. For example, WMO standards insist that temperatures be recorded well away from trees. Could this enhance radiational cooling? Sure, but it's the only way to guarantee a standardized measurement; as long as you stick to comparing airport-to-airport the effect cancels out.

It's also an effect that's far smaller than the UHI: those wunderground stations create more problems than they solve.

I think I found out why WMO standards say to keep them away from trees. Pretty sure it has to do with trees dripping too much rain onto the rain gauge well after it has rained, and not anything to do with getting through the thick woods to access the weather station.
Presumably they also haven't seen Elsner's 1996 and 1998 works on the matter on how disproportionate forest clearing is. And although I did state before that it should be done, even with a caveat, I think the effect is too disproportionate for just a caveat - a caveat alone isn't going to provide weather forecasts for areas that aren't artificially cold, nor is it going to cancel out disproportionate effects between different terrain that comes from this practice.
It may also be because they think trees affect the readings to be too high. Well...they don't, as they are a natural part of the climate and treeless stations disproportionately enhance cold, so if this is their reasoning it doesn't stand, especially not for the sandy soiled US places.

So I'm going to have to disagree with the WMO here if thick forest (as in the case of Tallahassee like we were discussing) is inherent to the climate of a place, especially given how weather.gov themselves didn't have a problem with it. Even more importantly if the place has sandy soil (and for the Southeast US this is of peak importance, because sandy soil and thick pine forest go hand in hand).
Any rain problem can be easily overcome by 2 stations, the second simply to record rain and being out in the open where no excess dripping onto the rain gauge. I realize this is not immediately practical for almost all if not all weather.gov stations, but this reasoning at the least is important to know for why the WMO says no trees near the station and whether or not they are actually right in all cases, ultimately coming back to how this reasoning affects the Tallahassee airport.

(I realize how impractical it may be because I ended up emailing the Tallahassee weather.gov asking about this and they said there was no budget for it. A shame, but as shown by their studies and email it's not inaccuracy stopping them from doing this).

[Can't think of username]

Better reply to this too for a better explanation.

Originally Posted by GTB365

I agree ...those weather underground stations create more problems than they solve for sure.

Fun to look at the data from them but who knows how accurate they are or if any of them are up to WMO standards...

As I said the Tallahassee stations are not only considered accurate by weather.gov/tae (they use them), but they solve the problem of the artificial airport even if they aren't perfect long term data. Take a look at the studies to see how disproportionate and unrepresentative the airport is.

and if you are a person concerned about a weather station being "artificial" because of cleared forest ...
then maybe it would be best to not put too much weight on data from these weather underground stations.

I am concerned about the artificially cold airports because they cut monitoring short and are misleading. The wunderground Tallahassee station solves those problems (which like I said weather.gov found out) so it should absolutely be given weight.

If you are a monitor, I'll grant it is best to choose the most urbanized stations for the most fun. But this isn't even about increasing your fun from more urbanization, it's stopping reduction from artificially cold stations.

Originally Posted by GTB365

When comparing U.S. cities .....I stick to the
official weather stations....which is usually airport to airport (apples to apples).

It's only apples to apples in terms of being the same man made airport location, not representivity of the area as a whole. For the Southeast US most airport stations are not advisable because their sandy soil is very disproportionately affected - otherwise you are comparing much lower readings than non artificial temperature, definitely not apples to apples.

Let me give you an example. Boston airport is the absolute warmest spot in the metro: https://www.city-data.com/forum/weat...l#post64635542
This is objectively not apples to apples with the Tallahassee airport just because it is an airport, which as I said is so artificially cold that it has the same lows as another (also artificially cold, even if not to the same degree) station 2 degrees of latitude further north! Representivity over the same man made location.

You could also consider the Austin airport. It's literally a cold sink as admitted by weather.gov/ewx: https://www.weather.gov/media/ewx/cl...ewx-Austin.pdf

The other ASOS site is located at Austin Bergstrom International Airport. The period of record at Bergstrom goes back to October 1942. This site is located in a low lying area in the drainage basin of the Onion Creek. Because of this, the overnight low
temperature in the wintertime under clear skies can sometimes be 10 degrees colder at Austin Bergstrom compared to Austin Camp Mabry.

This might be somewhat apples to apples with the artificially cold Tallahassee airport but definitely not with say Boston. Another example of why representivity>>>>the same man made spot.

[EduardoFinatto]

Originally Posted by memph

I would say that Montreal and Minneapolis are the classic 4 seasons climates in North America. Summers are warm and hot enough to be distinct from spring and fall, and winter is cold enough to also be a distinct season and have the classic winter features of freezing temperatures and consistent snowpack.

The Ohio Valley and Mid Atlantic largely lacks the classic winter features. It can experience large snowfalls and harsh freezes, but those tend to not be long lasting and milder weather tends to dominate.

Even here in Oakville there is a distinct difference compared to Montreal or Minneapolis. Winters are predominantly cool to cold but with significantly less consistency than those two cities, with frequent thaws, more winter rain than winter snow (due to precipitation mostly coming from Texas lows), especially during mild winters like this year's. I would say that 4 seasons is still the best way to describe our climate, but it's not as much of a perfect 4 seasons climate as Montreal and Minneapolis.

I agree with Minneapolis. But Montreal is too predominantly cold, I guess. Winters in Montreal are really cold, snowy and also a bit long compared to summer. Montreal has an average high barely above 26⁰C and an average low barely above 16⁰C in its warmest month, July. June and August manage to be even cooler than that, especially June. I don't think it's a real summer only if it's burning hot, but those averages are too weak.

I guess Windsor is one of the most balanced four seasons climate in Canada. Still pretty cold in winter but summers are more solid.

[memph]

Originally Posted by EduardoFinatto

I agree with Minneapolis. But Montreal is too predominantly cold, I guess. Winters in Montreal are really cold, snowy and also a bit long compared to summer. Montreal has an average high barely above 26⁰C and an average low barely above 16⁰C in its warmest month, July. June and August manage to be even cooler than that, especially June. I don't think it's a real summer only if it's burning hot, but those averages are too weak.

I guess Windsor is one of the most balanced four seasons climate in Canada. Still pretty cold in winter but summers are more solid.

Windsor winters tend not to have particularly consistent snow pack.

Montreal summers might not register super high on the mercury, but there's still enough humidity, plus long daylight and fairly high sun angle to make it feel warm. The warm part of summer is a bit short, but it still feels like summer for most of school childrens' summer break, with an average high of 25C+ from June 29 to August 15, and in recent years, it's been longer than that. 30C temperatures can occur from early May to late September.

Last 30.0C temperature
2022: Aug 29
2021: Aug 26
2020: Aug 11
2019: Aug 6
2018: Sep 5
2017: Sep 27
2016: Aug 11
2015: Sep 7
2014: Sep 5
2013: Sep 11
Avg: Aug 29

First 30.0C temperature

2022: May 12
2021: May 20
2020: May 26
2019: Jun 10
2018: May 31
2017: May 18
2016: May 27
2015: May 30
2014: Jun 2
2013: May 31
Avg: May 27

First 7 day stretch with an average high of 25.0C+

2022: May 8-14
2021: May 14-20
2020: May 20-26
2019: Jun 6-12
2018: May 25-31
2017: Jun 6-12
2016: May 19-25
2015: May 2-8
2014: Jun 22-28
2013: May 1-7
Avg: May 22-28

So I'd say Montreal still gets 3 months of a solid summer pattern, even if it's not a hot summer compared to a lot of places. But I don't think summer has to be hot, just warm. Since our concept of a 4 seasons climate originated in Europe, it's hard to say that Montreal's summers are too cold since they are similar to Europe's summers - cooler than the Mediterranean's, but warmer than those of Fennoscandia, the British Isles, Low Countries, Germany, Baltics, and Poland. Montreal summers are comparable to those of Paris, Vienna and Geneva.

The traditional characterization of a four seasons climate is
Winter: snow, freezing temperatures
Spring: spring bulbs and flowering trees (ex daffodils, tulips, magnolias, cherries, lilacs)
Summer: leafed out deciduous trees, summer flowers (ex aster family), opportunities for outdoor bathing
Fall: crop harvests, colourful deciduous leaves

If your winters are too mild, snow and freezing temperatures become infrequent, but also you might not have to harvest in fall, with crops sticking around into winter, or perhaps different varieties of crops grown during winter, you'll get more perennial broadleaf trees (ie no fall colours), and many of the spring bulbs and trees will lack the vernalization requirements to produce flowers.

If winters are too long, then you hardly get any spring of fall, and the climate might also be too cold for deciduous trees and the associated fall colours, as well as being too cold for magnolias, cherries, etc. Ex here we got our first spring bulbs (crocuses & snowdrops) blooming on March 8, and lilacs typically bloom in late May, often even into early June. That gives us 3 months or close of spring like conditions. In Northern Ontario, spring would be much shorter, maybe about 1.5 months. Likewise, from the first hints of colour in early September, to the colour peak in October, to the last leaves to fall (on understory shrubs) in late November to early December (and first snow around then too), we get about 3 months of fall, whereas Northern Ontario would get 1.5-2months and then it's basically winter.

[memph]

The reason I chose Montreal over Boston, Toronto, Detroit, etc is that those cities tend to have less consistent snowpack in winter, with mid-winter thaws being more frequent. Eastern North America tends to get more Texas Lows, SE Ridges, etc that can push mild weather and rain into areas with otherwise cold temperatures, whereas MN, SD, ND have more consistent winter cold and snow.

I could've also chosen cities like Kitchener or Barrie, but they're less recognizable and their summers are actually a bit cooler than Montreal's despite being further south and having warmer annual means.