Is the climate of Dallas more similar to the climate of Minneapolis or to the climate of Miami? (sunshine, comparison)
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Dallas has been very balmy this December, and truth be told so has Minneapolis but Miami? Its on another level! Miami has still been feeling summerlike. Dallas, while mild, has at least been feeling like mid-late fall if anything. Look at Dallas' forecast right now for this week... Mostly highs in the 50s and lows in the 30s. They're falling back to average. But their average week would easily make Miami's a headliner. "COLDEST DECEMBER TEMPS IN 12 YEARS!" Whereas in Dallas they would shrug and go about their day over lows in the 30s.
And I know such a week would be ABNORMALLY warm for Minneapolis, but at least there's an overlap between Dallas' forecasted lows and Minneapolis' forecasted highs. We hit 35 this afternoon. On Wednesday we are staying above freezing all day. Its not impossible for Minneapolis to have such balmy winter days as well. But you will rarely rarely see Miami get under 45. Hell it hasn't even gotten under 60 yet! The coolest so far this month as of 12/12/22 6:44 EST has been 68. Though watch out... they're fixing to get to the MID 60s by tomorrow morning!
Why are you not focusing on or downplaying how warm Dallas gets/how much closer it is to Miami in a lot of this, I'm sensing a bias throughout this thread (as also pointed out by Emman85) of overestimating Dallas' cold and understating its warmth. It's much closer to Miami overall, as Emman also said you are not making a good argument if it's the cold that matters.
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Seriously, y'all underestimating the lack of cool in Miami's weather. That city struggles to cool down where Dallas can easily reach outside the summer months.
I don't believe I'm doing so: you'll notice I have not been referring to Miami as anything other than warm or hot. The point I've always been trying to make is that Dallas regularly overlaps with Miami in winter and is far closer to it than Minneapolis even when it doesn't, whereas Minneapolis is so far behind that its all-time January record high literally isn't any higher than even Love Field's average January high, and its January average is colder than the normal coldest winter temperature for Love Field.
You want underestimating the lack of cool in Miami's weather? Take a look at these threads.
I promise you, they will blow any perceptions you may have had out of this thread further out of the water than any other of the Miami threads.
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Also, you can't look at temperatures simply based on approximation especially using Celsius
You absolutely can, as stated below it is too negligible to matter;
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which is my own bias, but I think is inferior to Fahrenheit when it comes to weather.
My own bias is that Fahrenheit is inferior because it makes no sense. How is 100 degrees not the boiling point of water for example?
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Especially when considering difference in absolute numbers. The translations are never fully accurate. Regardless, I think temperature ranges in a decade style are more telling
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The difference is negligible, nitpicking between say 23.3 and 23.333333 Celsius as a translation from 74 Fahrenheit is just plain silly.
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I don't care what anyone says... to me, 55 F is going to feel more like 35 F than like 75 F.
Objectively it does not. To you, it might, but it's because you are not using the objective UTCI.
I'm not calling you un-objective or biased, and I would hate for this to come across as 'holier than thou' or anything like that, but you have lived in warm to hot climates for most of your life, even just the hot climate for 64% of it as you yourself said. Therefore, you are not going to be as acclimated to the full range of temperatures like I and the UTCI are: I have lived in a Dfa/Dfb climate all my life that experiences the full range of temperatures and gives me what I consider an objective balance of each without giving me a heat or cold bias, which the UTCI seems to recognize this is the objective standard, as my temperature standards line up with it completely independently of hearing about it.
I get that this might sound like confirmation bias to prove my point, but it does stand to reason that getting a balanced mix of hot and cold and in between with the 4 seasons will prevent one from having a heat or cold bias. Anyhow, the UTCI is as per below. Take note of the bolded in particular.
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The categories relate to UTCI values as follows: above +46: extreme heat stress; +38 to +46: very strong heat stress; +32 to +38: strong heat stress; +26 to +32: moderate heat stress; +9 to +26: no thermal stress; +9 to 0: slight cold stress; 0 to -13: moderate cold stress; -13 to -27: strong cold stress; -27 to -40: very strong cold stress; below -40: extreme cold stress
23.9 and 12.8 Celsius both fall within the no thermal stress category, while 1.7 Celsius is slight cold stress (aka, a cool temperature). Furthermore, the fact that temperature differences matter more in the cool category than the no thermal stress category puts 12.8 Celsius a full 9.3 Celsius closer to 23.9 Celsius when this is taken into account (this doubles the temperature difference within the cool category between 12.8 and 1.7 Celsius because of the cool category's range being only half as much).
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At 55 and 35 you're wearing sweaters.
Not going off the UTCI. I will absolutely wear a sweater at 1.7 Celsius, but 12.8 Celsius is just as much T-shirt weather as 23.9 Celsius is, from both my own experience and the UTCI backing it right up.
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You can usually see your own breath. So to tell me that Dallas is more like Miami because a 55 degree high in January is numerically closer to a 75 degree high versus a 32 degree high in Minneapolis, is silly.
If anything is silly it is thinking 12.8 Celsius is closer to 1.7-0 Celsius than to 23.9 Celsius. See above about the UTCI.
12.8 Celsius isn't even the average high in any of Dallas' months, all are 14.3+ Celsius so I'm not sure why you are bringing it up. You are also underestimating Minneapolis' average high, it is -4.7 Celsius, not 1.7-0 Celsius, and Miami's average high is 24.5 Celsius instead of 23.9 Celsius (not as big a difference as the rest).
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Especially when a 55 degree high in Dallas often means a low close to if not below freezing.
Within a degree or two of, sure. Below freezing? That's not usually the case.
Love Field's normal January diurnal range would give a 1.8 Celsius low to a 12.8 Celsius day, and I would expect even more for the Arts District because greater urbanization lowers diurnal range. You may be thinking of Denton, to which your statement absolutely applies with its 13.2 Celsius January diurnal range.
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That's another thing you don't account for.
The reason I haven't accounted for it is because I haven't had to, 12.8 Celsius highs are not particularly relevant to the discussion.
As stated above, no month at Love Field has a high below 14.3 Celsius, and the Arts District is probably over 15 Celsius for all months. Not even Denton has any month with an average 12.8 Celsius high!
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Sure it regularly reaches 21.1+ Celsius hell even 26.7+ Celsius in Dallas most winters,
Fixed that for you.
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but not only are they short lived,
I'm not sure this is entirely true. Sure 26.7+ Celsius temperatures in Dallas in winter may be short lived (which is only definitely true for Love Field, I don't know about the Arts District), but 21.1+ Celsius days are far from short lived, even January in Love Field gets a median of 4+ days that warm in 1991-2020 and of course it would be more for the Arts District.
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they are usually followed by lows 50 and under.
Not true. These are the maximum winter lows for Love Field 1991-2020, that would be the equivalent of those warm to hot days:
-Most Decembers saw a low of 15.6 Celsius or warmer
-Most Januaries saw a low of 15 Celsius or warmer
-Most Februaries saw a low of 16.1 Celsius or warmer
-Most Marches saw a low of 18.9 Celsius or warmer
All well above 10 Celsius, and that's just Love Field, the Arts District would be even toastier.
Are you sure you are not thinking of Denton either? It has much higher diurnal temperature variation, especially in winter, and is much more prone to radiational cooling that drops night lows.
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In Miami, a 75 degree high can sometimes only drop to maybe 68 even in January.
Which Dallas' toasty days are obviously far closer to than ANYTHING Minneapolis has ever gotten in January.
Cold is relative. To someone from Fairbanks, Minneapolis isn't that cold. To Minneapolis, New York isn't that cold.
See my previous comment. The reason cold is relative is because there are many living in climates that don't give them a balanced mix of hot, cold, mild, etc.
When one lives in a balanced climate (Dfa/Dfb) like that with balanced amounts of everything, we get the objective UTCI. So looking at it from a balanced/objective perspective, Dallas is absolutely not cold in winter: at best its nights are cool, and all winter months have mild to very mild days/averages, with March even being on the warm side for highs!
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But Dallas' winters are cold ENOUGH that the trees are dormant for the winter
I don't think that's a very good argument, considering the temperatures themselves are what I have been told are suitable for evergreen/year round plants/trees/etc, little as I know about vegetation. You also need to take into account concerning dormancy that southern Louisiana and even the Everglades which are literally an identical climate to Miami are full of trees going dormant, yet those points have both been ignored several times as mentioned by Emman85.
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and frosts while not regular, are not rare
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I would actually argue that frosts are somewhat rare or at least not especially common. The median number of frost days for Love Field in 1991-2020 was something like 23, which is a clear minority because that's only 1/4 of the winter.
And 23 frosts is in fact an overestimate, weather.gov considers one frost event stretching from late night of one day to another day's early morning to count as 2 for some reason, but obviously it doesn't. So the real number of frost events is even lower, and that would drop further still for the Arts District.
Basically I don't buy into <1/4 of winter nights getting frost meaning frost isn't rare.
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Miami's winters aren't cold by any stretch of the imagination. They are "arguably" cool and you have to be a good arguer to convince people of that lol.
Objectively, they are inarguably far, far away from being cool. The coldest monthly low is 7.1 Celsius too warm to be cool as per the UTCI!
Warm to hot is what they are.
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I think this site is great for visualising the temps of a city throughout a year and their guideline for what's "cold" versus "cool" and "hot" is fair to me.
Look at Dallas, representing at least a LITTLE blue. Miami? You have to go back to 1989 to see blue on that graph!!!
Not even the blues, look at the greens.
Pardon my language but weatherspark's temperature analysis is totally non-objective crappy garbage. It overstates cold/understates warmth for ALL temperatures and has no respect at all for the UTCI.
With the actually good UTCI we see far more overlap in Dallas and Miami.
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I think the best argument to linking Dallas and Minneapolis temps isn't freezing temps, but chilly-cool temps between 35-65
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1.7-18.3 Celsius is not chilly-cool, it is cool-slightly warm. It wouldn't be chilly unless it went to 0 Celsius or below, 9+ Celsius is mild instead of chilly-cool, and 17-18 Celsius is where (pleasant) warmth starts to come into play.
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In Miami temps even at that range are very limited.
Not true, Miami has <18.3 Celsius average lows from December-February.
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Both Dallas and Minneapolis have lots of months with temps in that range.
Despite that, Dallas and Miami still have more overlap than Dallas and Minneapolis. You are also not taking into account how warm the Arts District is.
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Dallas may lack a proper winter but I don't think it lacks a spring and fall.
You may not think so, but being used to 4 seasons all my life, I would say it lacks at least the spring/fall of 4 seasons climates. I find it to have tropical summer, humid continental summer, and humid continental spring/fall.
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On the other hand, Dallas has a more proper winter than Miami has even a spring or fall.
That is still much closer to Miami's winter than to Minneapolis'.
I noticed there were quite a few things I missed in previous responses. Here's what they are:
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Originally Posted by Pincho-toot
I think this site is great for visualising the temps of a city throughout a year and their guideline for what's "cold" versus "cool" and "hot" is fair to me.
Here are some more examples of why weatherspark's temperature analysis is non-objective crappy garbage, which might help get the point across better.
-They say between 0-7 Celsius is 'very cold'. If that was true, places like Jacksonville and Pensacola would have very cold average January low temperatures and Miami would get very cold around twice a winter reason on average.
-They say between 7-13 Celsius is 'cold'. If that was true, Orlando, Tampa, Sarasota, and even tropical Fort Myers and Homestead would have cold winter nights, and that Minneapolis' average lows at the start of June are cold.
-They say between 13-18 Celsius is cool. If that was true, Orlando, Tampa, and Sarasota would have cool winters despite being almost tropical, and Minneapolis would have cool nights in June and August and even some of July, plus cold nights in May and September.
See how dumb those concepts are? That's why the UTCI is the way to go instead!
Also I don't wish to be mean, but as with other aspects, I'm also seeing something of a bias here in the direction of going with weatherspark in the interest of making Dallas out to be more like Minneapolis. If there wasn't one, you would probably be arguing for the cool nights in Minneapolis' summer.
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Originally Posted by Pincho-toot
In Miami, a 75 degree high can sometimes only drop to maybe 68 even in January.
The 'normal' low of a day with that high would be 15.5 Celsius, not 20 Celsius. I don't know why I missed that, a 20 Celsius low on a day like that is as unusual as an 11 Celsius low.
Also, a fun fact I found out with regards to the November comparisons. Since 1940 when records began, all but 3 Novembers at Love Field have seen a temperature at least as high as Minneapolis' 25 Celsius record highs, most higher! Plus the 3 that didn't still came quite close at 24.4 Celsius.
And of course it's quite likely the Arts District has never seen a November without seeing a temperature equivalent to or higher than Minneapolis' record high.
Last but not least, the Arts District is pretty likely to normally see seasons without a single low temperature as cold as Minneapolis' average January high, given that the usual cold snap discrepancy of >2.8 Celsius between it and Love Field is enough for it to probably be 9b (so -3.9 Celsius or warmer for coldest low temperature).
Compared to Minneapolis' January average -4.7 Celsius high, I think that says something! Does this change your point of view at all for at least the Arts District, Pincho?
Why are you not focusing on or downplaying how warm Dallas gets/how much closer it is to Miami in a lot of this, I'm sensing a bias throughout this thread (as also pointed out by Emman85) of overestimating Dallas' cold and understating its warmth. It's much closer to Miami overall, as Emman also said you are not making a good argument if it's the cold that matters.
I don't believe I'm doing so: you'll notice I have not been referring to Miami as anything other than warm or hot. The point I've always been trying to make is that Dallas regularly overlaps with Miami in winter and is far closer to it than Minneapolis even when it doesn't, whereas Minneapolis is so far behind that its all-time January record high literally isn't any higher than even Love Field's average January high, and its January average is colder than the normal coldest winter temperature for Love Field.
You want underestimating the lack of cool in Miami's weather? Take a look at these threads.
I promise you, they will blow any perceptions you may have had out of this thread further out of the water than any other of the Miami threads.
You absolutely can, as stated below it is too negligible to matter;
My own bias is that Fahrenheit is inferior because it makes no sense. How is 100 degrees not the boiling point of water for example?
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The difference is negligible, nitpicking between say 23.3 and 23.333333 Celsius as a translation from 74 Fahrenheit is just plain silly.
Objectively it does not. To you, it might, but it's because you are not using the objective UTCI.
I'm not calling you un-objective or biased, and I would hate for this to come across as 'holier than thou' or anything like that, but you have lived in warm to hot climates for most of your life, even just the hot climate for 64% of it as you yourself said. Therefore, you are not going to be as acclimated to the full range of temperatures like I and the UTCI are: I have lived in a Dfa/Dfb climate all my life that experiences the full range of temperatures and gives me what I consider an objective balance of each without giving me a heat or cold bias, which the UTCI seems to recognize this is the objective standard, as my temperature standards line up with it completely independently of hearing about it.
I get that this might sound like confirmation bias to prove my point, but it does stand to reason that getting a balanced mix of hot and cold and in between with the 4 seasons will prevent one from having a heat or cold bias. Anyhow, the UTCI is as per below. Take note of the bolded in particular.
23.9 and 12.8 Celsius both fall within the no thermal stress category, while 1.7 Celsius is slight cold stress (aka, a cool temperature). Furthermore, the fact that temperature differences matter more in the cool category than the no thermal stress category puts 12.8 Celsius a full 9.3 Celsius closer to 23.9 Celsius when this is taken into account (this doubles the temperature difference within the cool category between 12.8 and 1.7 Celsius because of the cool category's range being only half as much).
Not going off the UTCI. I will absolutely wear a sweater at 1.7 Celsius, but 12.8 Celsius is just as much T-shirt weather as 23.9 Celsius is, from both my own experience and the UTCI backing it right up.
If anything is silly it is thinking 12.8 Celsius is closer to 1.7-0 Celsius than to 23.9 Celsius. See above about the UTCI.
12.8 Celsius isn't even the average high in any of Dallas' months, all are 14.3+ Celsius so I'm not sure why you are bringing it up. You are also underestimating Minneapolis' average high, it is -4.7 Celsius, not 1.7-0 Celsius, and Miami's average high is 24.5 Celsius instead of 23.9 Celsius (not as big a difference as the rest).
Within a degree or two of, sure. Below freezing? That's not usually the case.
Love Field's normal January diurnal range would give a 1.8 Celsius low to a 12.8 Celsius day, and I would expect even more for the Arts District because greater urbanization lowers diurnal range. You may be thinking of Denton, to which your statement absolutely applies with its 13.2 Celsius January diurnal range.
The reason I haven't accounted for it is because I haven't had to, 12.8 Celsius highs are not particularly relevant to the discussion.
As stated above, no month at Love Field has a high below 14.3 Celsius, and the Arts District is probably over 15 Celsius for all months. Not even Denton has any month with an average 12.8 Celsius high!
Fixed that for you.
I'm not sure this is entirely true. Sure 26.7+ Celsius temperatures in Dallas in winter may be short lived (which is only definitely true for Love Field, I don't know about the Arts District), but 21.1+ Celsius days are far from short lived, even January in Love Field gets a median of 4+ days that warm in 1991-2020 and of course it would be more for the Arts District.
Not true. These are the maximum winter lows for Love Field 1991-2020, that would be the equivalent of those warm to hot days:
-Most Decembers saw a low of 15.6 Celsius or warmer
-Most Januaries saw a low of 15 Celsius or warmer
-Most Februaries saw a low of 16.1 Celsius or warmer
-Most Marches saw a low of 18.9 Celsius or warmer
All well above 10 Celsius, and that's just Love Field, the Arts District would be even toastier.
Are you sure you are not thinking of Denton either? It has much higher diurnal temperature variation, especially in winter, and is much more prone to radiational cooling that drops night lows.
Which Dallas' toasty days are obviously far closer to than ANYTHING Minneapolis has ever gotten in January.
Not sure why you made this thread if your mind is already made up on it
The fact that you can’t admit pretty much everything about Dallas’ climate is more similar to Miami than Minneapolis is funny
But its not though lol. Very few places in the US have the eternal greenery and warmth of Miami and Dallas isn't one of those. Dallas isn't continental by any means but it actually IS a 4 seasons climate. Miami is like another planet in comparison.
I will concede to this.. I believe Dallas is 54% more like Minneapolis and 46% more like Miami. I do think the possibility of Dallas getting frigid temps gives it an edge to Minneapolis, plus the actual seasonal foliage being more like Minneapolis. I have seen daffodils and tulips in both Minneapolis and Dallas, not in Miami. I have seen autumnal foliage in the fall months (Dallas can get colour as early as October on a cooler year) in both Dallas and Minneapolis.
On the other hand, you do have a good point about the potential for winter warmth in Dallas. I was comparing Christmas temps and conditions for all three cities yesterday and there's a good amount of overlap for Dallas and Miami. Granted last year was really warm for December. Dallas hit the 80s and Minneapolis recorded its second warmest ever Xmas Eve, hitting the 40s. Though Dallas' average on Christmas is about 59/40.
One thing I stand by though, is that what the temperature feels like is more relevant than the numerical distance. 40 feels more like 20 than it does like 60. Absolute distance in units doesn't change that.
Also, speaking of cold... Dallas is getting as cold as 10 degrees this week! Won't see that in Miami... ever!
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. Is this some kind of weather.gov joke, how the hell could it have snowed on that day.
, I'm sensing a bias throughout this thread (as also pointed out by Emman85) of overestimating Dallas' cold and understating its warmth. It's much closer to Miami overall, as Emman also said you are not making a good argument if it's the cold that matters.
