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Old 01-25-2008, 04:56 PM
 
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David, believe it or not, you may have just spared me the added expense of grid tie in light of power outtages in effect shutting down my power plant in deference to the safety of someone who might be working on a powerline (big ole duh design wise, huh?). Looks like I'd be better off independant entirely, with reduced costs to boot. That is, until they invent the proper switch so I can maintain my powerplant and not get some poor lineman killed. Neccesity is the mother of invention.
snorp, biodiesel isn't a crop thats grown for the sole purpose of fuel. Go to the supermarket, buy fresh corn oil for $7 a gallon, it kinda defeats the point of saving on fuel costs lol.
Biodiesel is created from reclaimed waste food oil (McD's french fry oil, chinese food oil, etc) that normally would have gone in the waste stream. Instead of these companies paying for removal of 'haz waste' because municpal waste systems had to special handle it, independant folks show up and take it off their hands for free, a win win win situation for the town, the biz, and these independants. Crudely explained, it's then brewed with lye, to segregate the glycerine and water out of it. those byproducts are now vastly environmentally neutral, the glycerine being soap, even if its a nasty tempora french fry scent.
what remains is biodiesel, which is now an 'extender' for home heating oil, or can be used straight in an old school diesel engine. like marine or truck diesel, it needs an additive meant to serve as an antifreeze to prevent it from jelling at cold temps.
The oil biz in NY- we were mixing 10% biodiesel blended (NYS law limits the blending %, not sure why) in with regular high sulphur oil, the oil company given multiple tax incentives to do so, plus this was like stomping on chopped meat with hamburger helper. we made more product to sell and (the bastards) kept the price the same. the benefits were that it reduced NYS demand for petroleum, brought up our flashpoints, lowered our sulfur content, and they're making more profit (along with the state because taxes are also imposed at point of sale). the downsides are that if the specific gravity (API) were too low, the whole batch had a tendancy to stratify, and if water content not remained after refining it tended to suspend in emulsion form until cold hits it, then it separates.
Raw biodiesel needs to be kept in an insulated tank, tends to be inconsistent in quality (we got huge batches barged into our tanks, from sources all over NJ. It was a collective mix from various sources. One batch flashes at 140f, another flashes at 210) and is succeptable to bacterial blooms the same as home heating oil and low sulfur diesel if it sits around. Bactracides are added, same as with regular fuel, to compensate for this problem if it arises. Most don't know they have a problem until their fuel filter is clogged, ask any sailor.
Home brewers use leftover hot water tanks reclaimed from the junkyard, and believe it or not they work! My mad scientist buddy tried it out, and has been running his late model volvo for 6 yrs on his home brewer. He also adds it in his home heating oil tank, but won't mess with NYS regs specifying 10%, otherwise it will nullify his home insurance policy if his house ever caught fire. There is some indication that NYS decided 10% based on NFPA recommendations, but no one I know has ever been able to explain the who, where, what and why to me. Diesel and home heating oil are distinguished in ny by being taxed differently, sulphur contents, oil having dye added. Truck gets pulled off the road with red dye in his fuel tank he gets slammed hard with tax evasion.
Newer diesel engines might be too persnickety to use it on, because they're designed to run on s-15 (S-15 means super clean low sulphur less than 15 parts per million). Judging from its scent and consistency, I think it also has added detergents. Trucks on the highway burn S-500, which is 500 ppm, the engine design requiring the suphur for slip of its moving parts. There is some concern that biodiesel isn't compatible with new engines despite it's tendancy toward lower sulphur. chemistry problems i suspect are might be related to cetane index and olefins for tighter engineered engines.
Frankly, I think they're more willing to risk an engine worth $500 with a flubbed batch of biodiesel vs a new $40k truck whose warranty was voided by using non standardized fuel. That depreciation rate is akin to totalling a vehicle.
There are other websites more layman friendly, but I think this one is more thorough because it addresses chemistry.
Make your own biodiesel: Journey to Forever
Biodiesel production is limited by the supply of waste oil in your community, the work people are willing to do to extract it, and how retarded the gov't is about taxing it. I heard in VA they put some folks in jail for a spell for selling small scale biodiesel without taxing it, and have since figured out a new policy for green energy taxation.

somehow I got the impression that corn meant for a stove wasn't nutritionally viable (USDA standards for nutrition make it unsalable for anything beyond fodder), which was why it was so cheap. The union for concerned scientists website had a huge problem with food grown as fuel right from the get go, but the entire thread of info was shutdown wholesale overnight from pressure by unamed sources. You can guess who, it smacks of Oprah in texas, and y'all are no stranger to this sort of politicking. There goes free speech.

As for the switchgrass deal- there's a chance thats already happening locally. Pellet dealers offer 'biobricks', which seems to be an acronym for bio mass fuels, and when I googled switchgrass fuel, they reference it in terms of biomass pellets used in a stove. The same benefit of replacing hardwood choices with bamboo floor- augment hardwood pellet fuel with quick growing low nutritional value grass grown on lesser soils- I really like this idea for a dozen reasons. The challenge they say they have right now is high ash, but if you see that clean byproduct as garden maintenence/soil amendment, it's a positive thing. What the heck is 'clinking'?
this is what canadians are saying about switchgrass
http://healthandenergy.com/biofuels.htm (broken link)

Another old school idea is seeing a resurgence. Newspaper log rollers fell out of favor because the inks used in the press were very toxic. Now newspapers are trending toward recycled pulp, less chemically processed bleached product, and soybean based inks. If your neighbors would be spared an hour at the burn barrel, they might be grateful you took it off their hands, or if municipal waste systems are involved, the landfill less taxed with volume and transport costs. More win win win. YAY!

The problem with wind/water/solar right now is that each one of them have times where they suffer from what I call 'doldrums of horse latitudes', and America has been spoiled by on demand convenience. I don't blame you for getting that 2.4k generator, but reducing your power consumption, and using alternative means when they become economically available to you, will result in less dependancy on foreign oil and savings to you. It's going to keep american dollars in our own backyard. Change is hard, and initially expensive, but change has to come.

America isn't only fighting a war using it's military, but also lamely in the economic war silently declared with sucker punches from our own national religion= capitalism. We work for OPEC right now when all our money is sapped out of our economy lining their pockets all because we're oil junkies. Shame on them for fooling us, but shame on us forever until we get our act together and quit this dependance.
Think about it- how is this not different than an addiction to coke, only on a national scale, over 4 generations? Our existence revolves around the infrastructure & delivery system of high volumes of consumption feeding them. It's making us all sick, killing our economy, and we're still doing it willingly to ourselves. The very definition of insanity.

No way america can live without some oil, petrochemical derivatives translating to plastics, roads, medicines, etc, but NEEDING them too much makes us a sitting duck for market manipulation. The better we can insulate ourselves as individuals from being caught in the middle of this economic war, the better off we the people will be.
I think it's americas greatest shame that a motorcycle invented in the early 1900's getting 75 mpg is locked up in a patent vault to aid and abet an oil industry protecting their profit margins in a volume economy. That motorcycle currently resides in smithsonian museum, dusted weekly in washington DC. How pathetic!
IT GETS WORSE!!!!!!!!
"The [motorcycle] collection is completed by a 1982 Rifle/Yamaha, highly modified for fuel efficiency. Powered by a 185-cc, 4-stroke engine and completely enclosed in a 19-lb. aerodynamic fiberglass fairing, the 175-lb. bike achieved an astonishing 372.22 mpg at the 1983 Vetter Fuel Economy Contest in California." ~smithsonian museum website

Wouldn't it be nice if detroit, wanting to pick itself up by the bootstraps, could put this 470 mpg motorcycle from link below into commercial production? It's a modified honda, I have no clue how much it costs, or how to buy one, and why a consumer doesn't have availability is a question I just emailed him about. I can foward his reply by email if anyone's interested, just ask.
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470...nomy-main.html

Another example, rent the dvd documentary "who killed the electric car" known to be available via netflix and blockbuster online.
http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokille.../electric.html

American business is deliberately playing to lose supressing technology and sticking with built in obsolescence blueprints because it's more profitable short term, and our gov't is sponsoring this duplicity in the name of a tilted faux 'free market'.
I'll take Nancy Reagans advice and just say no to crack every chance I get.
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Old 07-21-2008, 08:22 PM
 
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Hi all,

So if I were to buy land in WV that did NOT have an existing (i.e. known, tapped) gas well...would the power companies ever be able to come onto my property and "discover" gas and then tap it against my wishes?

I would want my property to be mine, plain and simple (or as close to this as possible).

Is the only way to do this to get mineral rights at the time of sale? How likely is this to be even possible (I guess I mean, how likely is it that the seller of the land even *has* the mineral rights to sell to me)? Very rare? Relatively common?

Thanks for the insights - some truly informed people on this thread!

Last edited by Lopeses; 07-21-2008 at 09:32 PM..
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Old 07-22-2008, 02:00 AM
 
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The answer to your question is Yes.

Your chances of getting the 'Mineral Rights are very slim...were sold over 100 years ago to Rockefeller Corporations.
If the acreage is significant, expect to already have gas well or oil well infrastructure there.
Transmission lines or gathering stations would be noted on the Deeds with Right of Way clauses and Easements.

Usually the surface tenant (owner) is given Free Gas for his trouble when new drilling is done...as the mineral rights owners have a legal right to extract their property...'Coal, Gas, Oil, Stone, Timber, ect.

West Virgina is being drilled from one end to the other and the gas is worth billions...free gas to the owner of the land is a small crumb for his trouble..but worth a few bucks in the wintertime...I'm hooking up this summer, after not using the gas for 3 decades...just common sense..cost a few hundred and will save several thousands as time goes by...
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Old 07-22-2008, 08:06 AM
 
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Thanks David - I really appreciate the feedback. Sorry in advance for all the questions...but here goes...

So it sounds like it would actually be (extremely???) uncommon to find land (acreage > 20 acres) that did not already have a well?

Would finding land that did not currently have a well, be any more likely not to be messed with in the future (than land that did already have a well)?


You mentioned timber. If I do not have 'mineral rights', can a timber company just decide to cut my trees down for the wood??? This would at least have to be specifically called out in the title wouldn't it?

Aren't trees owned by the surface owner? Or are they owned by the 'mineral rights' owner too? What about rocks? Plants? Water? Dirt (lol)?

Thanks again!
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Old 07-22-2008, 10:09 AM
 
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Give the great Karnac the envelope please...

1. Owners of gas rights are drilling on acreages of about 15 acres or more...distance of about 1500 ft minimum between wells...but this is in the strata areas where gas is present...where there is/was coal...there is gas and oil...almost the entire state, minus the mountains...geocyncline has bled off the gas in that strata.

2. Possibly...but some areas have not been drilled a lot...Wetzel County as an example but the stampede is on to de-gassify the coal strata before it is mined..

3. The Rights to timber must be conveyed into the future to be taken...sometimes it happens...that is why only a fool would sign a Deed and not have it looked over by a Lawyer...and have a Title Search done...

Nothing like buying the farm and seeing the previous owner walking around on your new land with a timber crew and the gas company engineer.
Trees are owned by the surface owner unless they are conveyed...hypothetical example.

If its in the Deed its in the Deed.

'Grandpa gives the farm to cousin Jasper...not wanting little Johnny to be left out, Grandpa gives the timber rights to Johnny for his college education...Little Johnny is age two.
Cousin Jasper loses his job when the coal mine bellies up and moves to Ohio..Sells the farm on a Land Contract to Missy and Jared Nova...they pay faithfully for 15 years and obtain the Deed for their land...

Timber crews arrive to cut Little Johnny's timber in the seventeenth year...Missy and Jared take little Johnny to Court and lose the case...Timber was conveyed legally and was owned by Little Johnny...A Title Search and Deed Abstraction would have shown Missy and Jared just what they owned...

If it is not Owned by another or Reserved...it (Rights,) are conveyed to the new owner for them to enjoy as they see fit...
Water will be the valuable commodity of the future...the Federal Government Protection Policies ALMOST own it now...
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Old 07-22-2008, 02:08 PM
 
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Thanks oh Karnak...but why does this make me so mad?

Oh well, sounds like I'm safe on the trees if a good title search doesn't come up with anything weird.

So it appears that WV's mineral richness makes it a hard place for a family to have some acreage in the country where they can live their lives in peace? This is SO sad.

Last edited by Lopeses; 07-22-2008 at 02:15 PM.. Reason: hit post too soon
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Old 07-22-2008, 04:09 PM
 
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The coal and oil was sold in the 1880's...gas was sold later...some earlier...JDRockefeller got his seed money for oil by piping gas from Mannington, Wv to New York City...(gas lites) have owned it all since day one.

Had no value to the farmers who needed the surface for their survival...what would have really worked was 100 year leases...now some are at least done in 30 year increments...
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Old 07-22-2008, 09:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snorpus View Post
Few people realize that many of our state parks (Blackwater, Canaan Valley, Watoga) were clear cut less than 100 years ago.
I guess I'm one of the few . . saw a picture when I was a boy of how Virginia (which then probably including West Virginia), had been completely logged off. Mountains with nothing but stumps as far as the eye could see. I'm reaching through time and memory, but as I recall, this wasteland of the Virginia(s) was actually "part" of what inspired our National Park Systems. I've never hugged a tree, but whenever I see an old growth tree in West Virginia that survived, I notice.

Not sure if this applies to the original topic, and it's not free, but Bigley Foodland in Charleston gives discounts for gas, a "bonus reward", i.e., My $18 food purchase discounted their gas by .03 per gallon.
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:25 AM
 
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Cathedral Park in the corner of Preston county is the only reminant of 'Old Growth forest the eastern USA...was left uncut by the old farmer who owned the land...is similar to Oregons sitka forests...as it is dark and almost wet...red spruce, which we no longer have, is found there...

A person can get an idea of the woodlands of ancient Virginia as they travel through the pathways...and its tiny,
maybe 30 acres...all thats left of a vast wilderness that stretched from Georgia to Maine...all of it gone in a few decades.

The logging began with the English Navy, in the 1600's...saw the 200' spruce in Maine and Nova Scotia and used them for ships masts...cut them and floated them to England for ship building..
all of it ended with the Sears and Roebuck homes of the 1890's to 1920's..the homes and buildings of America were built with the lumber of those sacred forests.
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Old 07-23-2008, 05:27 AM
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
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It's funny how 'old growth' now means 100 years..

My good friend is a forester and works all over the state. He's one of the few that really pushes select cutting and is pro-management.. when we used to drive around to the some of the sites, the difference in his approach vs. someone who hogs the timber is amazing.

If there was any resemblance of good management techniques back then, those mountains would be alive with old spruce today. Truly sad.

About mineral rights- sometimes I see ads for properties including mineral rights, however I wonder how much real value it holds nowadays. It seems prices for these properties are inflated, and I wonder of the minerals are 'played out', thus resulting in a premium for nothing.

I wouldn't attempt to buy ground without the advice of a few local guys that have been in the coal and gas business. One in particular I have met knows about every square inch of ground in Harrison and I would value his opinion.

Title searches don't reveal everything.
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