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And when business is all that matters in the world, does the world really matter any longer?
I don't think you are being fair to the spirit of jmx66 post. He didn't say that business is all that matters. In fact he pointed out a few other things that matter that would have made the elderly's situation much better.
Politics matters - a more favorable political and regulatory environment regarding construction could have prevented this. This falls on the shoulders of elected officials and the local voters who put them in office, not property owners. Of course when things go wrong they are quick to point the finger at those nasty people who are attempting to exercise their property rights (without which all other rights fail).
Family matters - taking care of our own, and making plans to do so is hardly a "business is all that matters" attitude or the law of the jungle, but rather putting responsibility in the proper place.
Personal responsibility matters - part of being in a free society is that we are allowed to live with the consequences of our poor planning, if in fact that is how we got into that pickle, rather than demanding a third party show "compassion" when things go wrong. Of course showing compassion is good, but not when it is coerced.
Finally, business as it relates to property rights matters, and when freely entered into contracts have not been violated (in this case rental agreements) then we have no business interfering with them, even if we don't like the outcome.
Quote:
We really think we are above the law of the jungle, do we?
The law of the jungle generally comes into play when property rights are not held sacrosanct, contrary to popular opinion. The 20th century gave us many front and center full scale societal displays of what happens in places where they supposedly were attempting to overcome "the law of the jungle" through the violation of people and their property for the sake of the greater good.
I do believe that the article stated that the families did step in, and thus the moves of the two elderly ladies, even thought their plan had been to live their remaining days in a town, and among friends they love. I honestly believe that Bismarck, and Arizona among family is a safe place, and a viable altrnative to what is sounding more and more to me like the "wild west." I also find that this is just a symptom of the problem. No one it seems it seems that not the oil companies, nor the small towns, nor the local citizens, nor the ppl still coming for jobs was/is prepared to deal effectively with the chaos caused by masses of ppl rushing to North Western N.D. And, I am aware that the boom is some years advanced, but there have been recent developments that have made it more prominent. I would imagine, since I do own a home there, yet I am somewhat cushioned on the opposite side of the state, that getting everything in order will take a few years. I do know that the amount of property taxes is insufficient to meet the demands of the ppl that live there, many of whom, (at least as evidenced among posts on this forum) are not, and do not plan to buy property, thus....no property taxes to aid w/ all these necessities. The 1% taxe, just recently passed will take awhile to make any differance to the financial situation that the citizens find themselves in. I am certainly hoping for a good outcome, but realistically I believe there will be more publicized similar situations. A moratorium on temporary housing was a necessity, from what I've gathered were the issues of lack of roads, sewer, power lines etc. yet another cost to be assumed, by the already burdened property tax payers. There really does not appear to be a short term answer to a long term solution. Til then, we need to be supportive of the circumstances we each face, and do our best to be part of the solutions, not the problems. my 2 cents Happy Thanksgiving
I don't think you are being fair to the spirit of jmx66 post. He didn't say that business is all that matters. In fact he pointed out a few other things that matter that would have made the elderly's situation much better.
Politics matters - a more favorable political and regulatory environment regarding construction could have prevented this. This falls on the shoulders of elected officials and the local voters who put them in office, not property owners. Of course when things go wrong they are quick to point the finger at those nasty people who are attempting to exercise their property rights (without which all other rights fail).
Family matters - taking care of our own, and making plans to do so is hardly a "business is all that matters" attitude or the law of the jungle, but rather putting responsibility in the proper place.
Personal responsibility matters - part of being in a free society is that we are allowed to live with the consequences of our poor planning, if in fact that is how we got into that pickle, rather than demanding a third party show "compassion" when things go wrong. Of course showing compassion is good, but not when it is coerced.
Finally, business as it relates to property rights matters, and when freely entered into contracts have not been violated (in this case rental agreements) then we have no business interfering with them, even if we don't like the outcome.
The law of the jungle generally comes into play when property rights are not held sacrosanct, contrary to popular opinion. The 20th century gave us many front and center full scale societal displays of what happens in places where they supposedly were attempting to overcome "the law of the jungle" through the violation of people and their property for the sake of the greater good.
No thank you.
Just my .02
Well put.
When the government begins to tell people how much they should earn from their own property, then it begs the question of why people should even own that property?
Even if the elected officials in Williston and Williams County (among the many counties in Western ND) had no idea that the US economy in general would be in such poor condition that they would be overwhelmed by the numbers of people that they have been, they did know that an oil boom was occurring. That they failed to acknowledge that fact and seemingly continue to respond adequately to that situation is a sign of mind-boggling ineptitude or a lack of political will. Or both.
And the elderly people in question have lived long enough to remember at least one or two other tough economic times within their own lifespans. That they were somehow under the impression that things wouldn't be "rough" again is a sign that they were replacing good planning and logical thinking with confirmation bias and wishful thinking. Whatever age you are, this is always a poor idea.
Finally, rental agreements ARE contracts. Unless people want all contracts to be voided when people claim that those contracts are "unfair" and we wish to see an end to rule of law, they have to be ready to accept that when people sign a contract for a set period, the contract is only valid for that set period. Anything beyond that isn't covered under the current contract; nor should it be expected to be.
We are in complete agreement on this one, internationalman.
And when business is all that matters in the world, does the world really matter any longer?
We really think we are above the law of the jungle, do we?
Here's a better idea for you folks that are drooling over that 500k job in western ND, but have no place to stay. Just push granny and her wheelchair out into one of those North Dakota winter nights, since she is of no value, business-wise, anyway. The problem would be solved within just a few minutes. Hope you're toasty warm in that apartment.
Business isn't all that matters. But a rental agreement is a business agreement. When or if that changes and it becomes a property owner's responsibility to house people at or below the going market rates to set some type of "fairness" standard, then we can reasonably discuss them not charging what the market will bear for property that they own.
If this were really the "law of the jungle" then the elderly would killed and their space would taken by the strongest animals around. Obviously this isn't occurring; elderly people are simply having to move to areas where they can afford to live.
Few jobs pay $500k in the Bakken. If they did, then things would be even worse than they are now (see New York City or San Francisco for situations where housing costs are far more ridiculous than they are in Western ND). If renters can pay $2k for an apartment, then that's simply market forces at work, which is the basis for our capitalist society.
If the elderly person in question is in a wheelchair, then it's incumbent upon the elected officials in Western ND to loosen regulations so that low-cost senior housing can be quickly built to accommodate the rapidly changing economic situation. If they fail to do as such, they are failing the constituents and should be replaced either in upcoming elections or by the recall process if the voters find that they cannot wait.
Sorry, but there are many people in other parts of North Dakota (as well as the US) that are having problems finding affordable housing. When or if those problems are brought to the fore and resolved, then the people in Western ND might receive a little more sympathy/empathy. Until then, they'll have to "muddle by" like everybody else.
WILLISTON, N.D. — After living all of her 82 years in the same community, Lois Sinness left her hometown this month, crying and towing a U-Haul packed with her every possession.
She didn't want to go, but the rent on her $700-a-month apartment was going up almost threefold because of heightened demand for housing generated by North Dakota's oil bonanza. Other seniors in her complex and across the western part of the state are in the same predicament.
Kick Grandma & Grandpa out into the street all in the name of GREED!
Nice.
Obviously, the answer to this problem is to haul in more shipping containers to house the old folks. They're tough, they lived through the Great Depression- it may bring back childhood memories for them. Some may have been born in a boxcar. -Kind of a full circle type experience.
I can't help but remember the court case with the little kid and Testor paints. Remember the little bottle of Testor paint you bought as a kid to paint your models with? Some little kid filed suit and won. There was an executive order to raise prices due to fairness and the limit was something like 10% a year. Testers raised their prices from 17 cents a bottle to 25 cents a bottle. Yes, I was around and I remember the raise. This little kid filed suit that Testors raised prices above and beyond. He won hundreds of thousands.
I also firmly believe that I can put down a price on my holdings and sell it at what I want. But there is also a fairness in me that says "Reasonable."
So if my landlord raised prices at a reasonable rate and made improvements to meet that rate, I would have no problem with it. Say he raised rent from $600 a month to $625 a month, that's fine. Of if he raised rent from $600 a month, but put in a new driveway or fenced, or put in new windows, or something and then raised it to $650 a month, I would understand.
But in some cases, rent has went from $600 a month, to $1000 on the 1st of October and agains to $1500 on the first of January with a letter to say $2000 on the 1st of April. Excuse me, that is not reasonable rent increase. Fair market value? Not hardly. Chuck the word "fair".
As to old folks moving, they should have planned, relatives should have helped, they should have worked harder to get a better retirement. BULL CRAP.
You can't plan on that kind of increase. There is nothing in this world you can do. Let's say the first increase hit. You can start planning and you can start packing and there is no way your fixed income is going to help you out on this one. So your relatives have to kick in. Excuse me? Why? Your income is your income, they should not be a factor. Your rent increased, theirs didn't. At the age of senior, you should be self sufficient and if you are not, there's a problem with our gov.
Then the second increase hits and you still haven't found a new place to live, away from your kids, away from your friends, a new territory that as a senior citizen absolutely scares the hell out of you. You have used up all your savings and you haven't even gotten a travel van to move with, nor anybody to move the stuff, because at 80 years of age, the couch is a little tough to pick up.
Yes. You have been victimized. Fair market value? That is absolutely wrong. People today look at what the market will bare. They don't look at fair market value. Fair market value is the increase in price due to price fluxuations based on price of marketable material. If I was building couches, it's the price that material "might" cost me in a fair amount of time. Not quadruple amount for my domain. People ARE getting victimized. Plain and simple.
So some people can call it victimized and some can say market value. But there is a big difference and I think, in my opinion, these old folks are getting screwed.
I can't help but remember the court case with the little kid and Testor paints. Remember the little bottle of Testor paint you bought as a kid to paint your models with? Some little kid filed suit and won. There was an executive order to raise prices due to fairness and the limit was something like 10% a year. Testers raised their prices from 17 cents a bottle to 25 cents a bottle. Yes, I was around and I remember the raise. This little kid filed suit that Testors raised prices above and beyond. He won hundreds of thousands.
I also firmly believe that I can put down a price on my holdings and sell it at what I want. But there is also a fairness in me that says "Reasonable."
So if my landlord raised prices at a reasonable rate and made improvements to meet that rate, I would have no problem with it. Say he raised rent from $600 a month to $625 a month, that's fine. Of if he raised rent from $600 a month, but put in a new driveway or fenced, or put in new windows, or something and then raised it to $650 a month, I would understand.
But in some cases, rent has went from $600 a month, to $1000 on the 1st of October and agains to $1500 on the first of January with a letter to say $2000 on the 1st of April. Excuse me, that is not reasonable rent increase. Fair market value? Not hardly. Chuck the word "fair".
As to old folks moving, they should have planned, relatives should have helped, they should have worked harder to get a better retirement. BULL CRAP.
You can't plan on that kind of increase. There is nothing in this world you can do. Let's say the first increase hit. You can start planning and you can start packing and there is no way your fixed income is going to help you out on this one. So your relatives have to kick in. Excuse me? Why? Your income is your income, they should not be a factor. Your rent increased, theirs didn't. At the age of senior, you should be self sufficient and if you are not, there's a problem with our gov.
Then the second increase hits and you still haven't found a new place to live, away from your kids, away from your friends, a new territory that as a senior citizen absolutely scares the hell out of you. You have used up all your savings and you haven't even gotten a travel van to move with, nor anybody to move the stuff, because at 80 years of age, the couch is a little tough to pick up.
Yes. You have been victimized. Fair market value? That is absolutely wrong. People today look at what the market will bare. They don't look at fair market value. Fair market value is the increase in price due to price fluxuations based on price of marketable material. If I was building couches, it's the price that material "might" cost me in a fair amount of time. Not quadruple amount for my domain. People ARE getting victimized. Plain and simple.
So some people can call it victimized and some can say market value. But there is a big difference and I think, in my opinion, these old folks are getting screwed.
Very well said!!! Thank you for putting it down here. I am lacking the concentration and energy to articulate my thoughts from my stomach flu, but I am glad for what you wrote.
I believe the elderly are the victims along with new families moving into the Williston area and long time residents. It would be very different if improvement were being made, however, this is an old building where no updates have been done. I know I drive by it and I have been in them!
Family matters - taking care of our own, and making plans to do so is hardly a "business is all that matters" attitude or the law of the jungle, but rather putting responsibility in the proper place.
Personal responsibility matters - part of being in a free society is that we are allowed to live with the consequences of our poor planning, if in fact that is how we got into that pickle, rather than demanding a third party show "compassion" when things go wrong. Of course showing compassion is good, but not when it is coerced.
I agree with you about personal responsibility and also about taking care of our own. The one thing we seem to forget in regards to what is happening in the western part of the state and also is spreading into the central part of the state as well is this: Even the city and county officials of these areas did not see THIS coming, if they didn't see it coming and they didn't take the steps to prepare their counties and cities for this, how in the world was the average citizen supposed to know what was around the bend? Do you have a crystal ball that lets you in on the future? If you do, can I rent it from you, because I sure would like to be able to know how to make every right decision now, so that in my advanced age I don't get blindsided because I didn't know what was coming. I'm just being silly with you about the crystal ball thing - just trying to make a point that what is happening in ND at the present time was unforeseeable to these people.
Business isn't all that matters. But a rental agreement is a business agreement. When or if that changes and it becomes a property owner's responsibility to house people at or below the going market rates to set some type of "fairness" standard, then we can reasonably discuss them not charging what the market will bear for property that they own.
If this were really the "law of the jungle" then the elderly would killed and their space would taken by the strongest animals around. Obviously this isn't occurring; elderly people are simply having to move to areas where they can afford to live.
Few jobs pay $500k in the Bakken. If they did, then things would be even worse than they are now (see New York City or San Francisco for situations where housing costs are far more ridiculous than they are in Western ND). If renters can pay $2k for an apartment, then that's simply market forces at work, which is the basis for our capitalist society.
If the elderly person in question is in a wheelchair, then it's incumbent upon the elected officials in Western ND to loosen regulations so that low-cost senior housing can be quickly built to accommodate the rapidly changing economic situation. If they fail to do as such, they are failing the constituents and should be replaced either in upcoming elections or by the recall process if the voters find that they cannot wait.
Sorry, but there are many people in other parts of North Dakota (as well as the US) that are having problems finding affordable housing. When or if those problems are brought to the fore and resolved, then the people in Western ND might receive a little more sympathy/empathy. Until then, they'll have to "muddle by" like everybody else.
Maybe the old folks could get good jobs on the rigs? I hear there are openings. It would help them "muddle" and Halliburton and friends would have there labor force. It'd kill two birds with one stone.
A: I own an apartment building, grandmas live in 4 of the 12 units. I raise rents to market rates (rates that others are willing to pay). At least grandmas have a chance to stay and have a place to live.
B: I own the apartment building. I sell it to Mega Oil Company, and everyone gets the boot. Now for sure grandma is on the street with no place to go.
The landlord should not have to subsidize the lower rent for those unable to make those payments. No more than you or anyone else in the area. This is a business. Do you demand Wal-Mart sell milk at a lower price to elderly, or poor people? What about car repairs, utilities, gasoline?
Why is the landlord the only party being singled out in this whole deal? Have you hired an electrician to wire a house lately. It is about 50% higher than in the Eastern part of the state. Same goes for HVAC. Heck housing as a whole. A new home in Fargo starts under $150,000. Find one of those out West.
NOW with that said, don't think I don't have a heart. I have struggled with this in my head for some time. I am a landlord (not in the oil patch YET). I really feel the only solution is for the community to come up with a plan for low income housing for Seniors. The community will have to come to grips with what is going on, and then figure how to pay for and deal with this problem. If this boom continues the housing problem will most likely continue for years to come as it grows, so will housing, just not fast enough. Thus rents will stay high.
My two cents.
This horse was beat to death a few months back, but alas here we are again. These types of stories make great headlines.
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I'm just being silly with you about the crystal ball thing - just trying to make a point that what is happening in ND at the present time was unforeseeable to these people.
