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I said,give me an example of someone that is highly skilled, educated, in a sought after profession and you came up with the...Wal-Mart cashier.
I think I clearly described what I mean, I never mentioned cashiers, I gave plenty of examples. Any organization, research, manufacturing, education, IT, etc., etc., that requires skilled grunts to function, nevertherless maintain laws of hierarchy despite the mythology of free market, supply and demand, etc.. I mentioned already that fast food (aerospace, or bioresearch) managers today, may easily manage women hygiene product line (IT, Research, etc.) tomorrow, with minimum or no additional training, that's how unique those folks are. You cant's turn a skilled bio-research grunt into an IT grunt so easily, if at all. Yet, it's narrowly specialized bio-research grunts (for example) who sometimes work for ridiculously low wages.
If a narrowly specialized bio-research grunt is disposed off (due to the shifts in technology or his age) he would face prospects of minimum wage work (if lucky) and hardship, yet it's versatile management types who get golden parachutes as perks, regardless of performance on top of the multimillion wages. How that fits in your "skill" theory. Reminder, there are 500,000 CEOs alone in the USA. So those skills are not that unique. I think I made my point, if you don't agree that's fine.
Don`t hate the guy that took school seriously and became a doctor, lawyer, chemist, engineer,etc.
Beacons of success you listed make (much) less than C+, B- students with good connections, "alpha" personalities and superior peoples skills who study little, party a lot and, at the end of a day, become managers, board members and top earners. If your child makes straight A - do something, because, in all probability, he will never get too close to the trough, it's not about As.
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Don`t be jealous of those people and think that someone with no aspirations or skills should be paid big money. Most of us had chances to become more in life. But we either made bad choices or didn`t give two cents about what our life would be like when we had to stop relying on mommy and daddy and did what we thought was cool. Now the real world has hit you in the face and you are disgruntled and jealous of people with ambition and skill.
I just imagined Roman slave-owners giving this sort of pep talk. Social mobility in the later days Rome put American social mobility of today to shame. A slave of "aspirations and skills" could become a free men and get slaves of his own. If only Roman patricians were as smart a American social controllers to come up with Horatio Algeresque carrot of success through hard work and aspirations in order to keep Roman slave masses docile.
You see, if I'm locked up in a cellar full of human waste, if I fight hard to get through the only opening to the top to join folks who crap on those who toil below. What does it prove? Does my success validate a cellar full of excrement and toiling human beings?
I don't consider life to be "unfair" because it's not the "best and brightest" and folk like me who customarily win the fight for the only way out. Life is unfair because that cellar exists and it poisons every aspect of human existence.
I said,give me an example of someone that is highly skilled, educated, in a sought after profession and you came up with the...Wal-Mart cashier. I`m going to break this to you gently. A Wal-Mart cashier is neither highly skilled nor sought after. There is nothing wrong with being a cashier, we need them. but it is a job that most people could do. So therefore they can be easily replaced. But of course that person is going to make less than their manager. Why would someone aspire to be a manager if they are going to make less money than their employees? But perhaps a wal -mart cashier with aspirations and hard work can become one of those managers that you think should be paid less than the people who work for them. There is a reason most people are managers. They, at one time, were the so called grunts ( your word) and through more education or hard work obtained a managerial postion. See how that works? Now, if you have no ambition and just want to tarry through life on a menial income, then you can do that. But don`t hate the guy that went on to become a supervisor, manager, or whatever. Don`t hate the guy that took school seriously and became a doctor, lawyer, chemist, engineer,etc. Don`t be jealous of those people and think that someone with no aspirations or skills should be paid big money. Most of us had chances to become more in life. But we either made bad choices or didn`t give two cents about what our life would be like when we had to stop relying on mommy and daddy and did what we thought was cool. Now the real world has hit you in the face and you are disgruntled and jealous of people with ambition and skill.
I`m not saying life is fair. It isn`t. Some people have it easier than others. But this is real life and life is what you make it. Not what you think it should be.
I never said a cashier was highly skilled but the fact is some are more skilled than others. This is true for all jobs. Does the most skilled one always get a promotion at whatever store? I doubt it. Your theory is everyone is paid what they deserve and that everyone that got a promotion is the guy that deserves it. That is way wrong and it is not how it really works in corporate America. Your highly skilled worker example doesn't fit with what you're trying to prove so I brought it down to a job occupation everyone can understand. It's laughable you think that just because someone got a promotion that they are oh so smart and worthy. Also you dodged my point about how wages can fluctuate due to various factors. Your right life is what you make it...I have found you have to take these matters into your own hands and play hardball with these companies. I no longer take a finance project an agency offers me unless it pays a certain wage and I have increased my salary by doing that. Well I'm off to eat a good Italian dinner if the chef is good...I'll tell the owner he deserves a raise. Doubt he'll get it though.
I never said a cashier was highly skilled but the fact is some are more skilled than others. This is true for all jobs. Does the most skilled one always get a promotion at whatever store? I doubt it. Your theory is everyone is paid what they deserve and that everyone that got a promotion is the guy that deserves it. That is way wrong and it is not how it really works in corporate America. Your highly skilled worker example doesn't fit with what you're trying to prove so I brought it down to a job occupation everyone can understand. It's laughable you think that just because someone got a promotion that they are oh so smart and worthy. Also you dodged my point about how wages can fluctuate due to various factors. Your right life is what you make it...I have found you have to take these matters into your own hands and play hardball with these companies. I no longer take a finance project an agency offers me unless it pays a certain wage and I have increased my salary by doing that. Well I'm off to eat a good Italian dinner if the chef is good...I'll tell the owner he deserves a raise. Doubt he'll get it though.
I don't understand why you keep on bringing in "cashiers" who clearly are in the bottom pile of a compensation pyramid and no way no how can be used to illustrate my point.
Again, my point is that compensation is directly related to your place in the pecking order of an organization. My point is that even the most generic, the most mediocre, the most inexperienced lower level managers make more (as a rule) than much more educated and unique skill-wise "grunts" (a.k.a. non management track specialists with many years of education and experience under their belts) BECAUSE even lower level managers are higher in the pecking order of an organization. In the hierarchical systems, compensation must reflect your standing in hierarchy of organization. Exceptions are not allowed. I don't see how you proved my observations to be wrong.
You see, a corporation COLLECTIVELY generate X amount of revenue. Big question is how to split that up between workers. Are some chain links are more important than the others? This kind of "questioning" is not allowed in hierarchical organization where it's postulated by default that shareholders, management and higher level grunts contributes the most and thus deserve the lion's share of compensation. At some point Coca Cola CEO made AS MUCH as all non management Coca Cola employee in North America. Does it mean if Coca Cola fire all non management workers its sales would drop just 50%? Since according to "each gets what he deserves" CEO alone is responsible for 50% of Coca Cola revenue. I could not care less about management compensation IF free workers would flock to a corporation and said "Geez, this guy is so outstanding he clearly deserves 1000 times what I make. In the future, I'm more than glad to work more and more and more for less and less and less only to keep such outstanding guys satisfied." However, in the system of wage slavery there are no free workers, you must work for whatever owning class throw at you or starve. The greater share of wealth goes to the top, the less freedom remains.
Really? CEOs and chief executives don't work hard? People don't reach those types of positions where they are making hundreds of thousands (or millions) per year without busting their humps to get to that type of position in the first place. You obviously have no clue of what people in those types of positions actually do.
True, people on the "floor" likely do harder physical labor. But it is also work that almost anybody can do. That is why their time is considered much less valuable in the larger workforce. That may be completely unfair - but it is the way it is, like it or not.
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Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but
In my experience, they play golf with the right people.
Exactly, working hard won't get you places anywhere near as far as simply having connections to people with power, or be someone who comes from an "important." family, or went to a good school, and started making contacts there. This can be seen if someone really opens their eyes, and looks at corporate culture, but there is a sort of cultural brainwashing that hard work is the key to success, and that those at the top are the ones who worked the hardest, so they must deserve their high pay, and if you work hard enough you will reach the top too, "this is America, everyone can make it." That's not the whole story, very few people manage to class jump.
Hard work does matter, lazy people don't usually get very far, but it's not the be all that people make it out to be. Many people work extremely hard, and give their all for corporations, and never get anywhere, or get a promotion or two then get stuck. You can be the hardest worker in the company and hear from the bosses every day how essential you are, and what a great job you are doing. When there is an opening at the company you may feel certain that promotion is sure to be yours.
What you don't know is that the CFO's son has a fraternity brother that finally managed to squeak by, and graduate, and even though he's never had a job in his life, parties every day, and isn't all that bright, his father is a member of the same country club as many on the board, and his family is an important contact, they have already decided he is getting that job. You will never know any of this, they will present him as this amazing new hire whose skill the company really needs. The will pat you on the back, and tell you how important you are to the company, and that your time will come.
My first career was in HR, I saw this happen all the time. We always hear stories about someone who came from "nothing" becoming CEO and reaching the highest levels, that happens, but it's not common. Most people who reach the top were groomed for it, and had many advantages that others didn't. It's easy to say if you just work hard enough you can make it, but it's more likely someone else who had all the advantages, and know the right people will get the job you want.
The CEO's salary went from $750K to $2.55mil/yr. You think if they had that $1.5mil per year they' still be in business? I am thinking that was a drop in the bucket and had no real bearing on anything.
That is quite a jump in salary for a undeserving creep but i agree with you.
I don't understand why you keep on bringing in "cashiers" who clearly are in the bottom pile of a compensation pyramid and no way no how can be used to illustrate my point.
Again, my point is that compensation is directly related to your place in the pecking order of an organization. My point is that even the most generic, the most mediocre, the most inexperienced lower level managers make more (as a rule) than much more educated and unique skill-wise "grunts" (a.k.a. non management track specialists with many years of education and experience under their belts) BECAUSE even lower level managers are higher in the pecking order of an organization. In the hierarchical systems, compensation must reflect your standing in hierarchy of organization. Exceptions are not allowed. I don't see how you proved my observations to be wrong.
You see, a corporation COLLECTIVELY generate X amount of revenue. Big question is how to split that up between workers. Are some chain links are more important than the others? This kind of "questioning" is not allowed in hierarchical organization where it's postulated by default that shareholders, management and higher level grunts contributes the most and thus deserve the lion's share of compensation. At some point Coca Cola CEO made AS MUCH as all non management Coca Cola employee in North America. Does it mean if Coca Cola fire all non management workers its sales would drop just 50%? Since according to "each gets what he deserves" CEO alone is responsible for 50% of Coca Cola revenue. I could not care less about management compensation IF free workers would flock to a corporation and said "Geez, this guy is so outstanding he clearly deserves 1000 times what I make. In the future, I'm more than glad to work more and more and more for less and less and less only to keep such outstanding guys satisfied." However, in the system of wage slavery there are no free workers, you must work for whatever owning class throw at you or starve. The greater share of wealth goes to the top, the less freedom remains.
You're getting the posts confused I was responding to spmc32 and his theory that everyone is paid what they're worth I actually agree with you. The only thing is, is you seem to think the problem only effects middle management or certain levels of grunts. I see it as a problem across the board at all levels within a company.
Any grunt that is a performer is probably being underpaid while the person above him is probably reaping the benefits by receiving a pat on the back from their higher up (upper management). All the performing grunt is doing is making the guy above him look good and probably for a slave wage at that. This is how corporate America has it setup. It doesn't pay to be the performing, elite grunt so you might as well skip that and do whatever it takes to get into management or supervision.
I hope the workers have learned from this. Before you put your job on the line, you should make sure you don't need that job. They got greedy, they wanted more than $20 an hour with benefits when the whole trend is toward lower wages and fewer benefits. That's what open borders are all about-- bringin in cheaper and cheaper labor, unlimited quantities of it.
Now for those workers who still need a job, it won't likely be another high paying one, many will be lucky to find a part-time minimum wage job.
And the race to the bottom continues. God bless America.
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