Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Oh...absolutely! Responsible behavior needs to be a 2-way street. And just for the record, I can safely report that I have witnessed the OTHER side of the issue as well. People impatient to get up the Corporate ladder will flit from one position to another in an effort to move high and fast. This usually leaves companies in dire straights as far as their projects go and also creates no small problems in providing those much-sought separation packages (aka: "Golden Parachutes").
My only reason for commenting is that people who WANT to make a commitment to a particular course of action or plan for their future can be stymied by not being able to depend on their employment/income. I think its reasonable to expect that a person ought be able to work without the constant threat of being let go dangling over their head constantly. Whatcha think?
FWIW.
No argument there. However, I guess the question is how one goes about meeting said expectations. Like many things, employment is mostly about supply and demand. The more in demand your skills are, the less "risk" there is of being frivolously replaced. And I think those who put in the effort and commitment will usually be awarded with more opportunities. Of course, nothing is ever perfect or guaranteed. So yea, there will be scenarios where one has done everything in their control, but are still held back. But these things are more the exception than the norm.
With all that superb education of yours you still cannot comprehend concept of a pyramid. OK, let me help you, just imagine that USA is one big Wal-Mart. Most of the jobs in Wal-Mart USA are non management and low paid (that's even if you have a job). Bottom 40% of workers in Wal-Mart USA owns whopping 0.5% of nation' wealth and 3% of nation' income, top 20% own 90% of wealth. Yet, your delusion suggests that provided proper efforts (just like yours, because you are such remarkable human being) bottom layers of the pyramid we call USA could collectively move up to the upper layers. It's beyond laughable. Nope, there is no top without bottom. There is no your decent wage/income without forcing lower layers of the pyramid to work for less (than you). Laws of hierarchy are clear and immutable, you must have X number of lesser monkeys per each top monkey.
It's very pleasant to spend 1 hour of your life working in order to secure 1000 hours of service a lesser human being. It's tempting to assign such a remarkable exchange rate to your own genetic superiority, intelligence, efforts, upbringing, invisible hand, whatever. Better yet to deny significant portion of population means of survival (job, for example) and grab resources they would have used for yourself, then call for invisible hand to justify this sort of expropriation. But those are secondary and tertiary things. Foundation of such skewed exchange rate - coercion, violence, repressive apparatus of a state. In a truly free world without coercion under penalty of starvation etc. no human being would spend 1000 hours working in order to get 1 hour of your service. Anglos exterminated Indians because they were self-sufficient and impossible to turn into wage slaves unlike imported Irish etc.
There is NO law of nature saying that Wal-Mart cashiers should be paid peanuts unlike you (whatever you do) and WM management. Wal-Mart cashiers deprived of independent means of subsistence/survival can be forced to work for peanuts and so can you (trust me). It's called wage slavery for a reason. You just try to justify the plight and incomes of the bottom layers of wage slaves. Guess what, full fledged slave owners of the past did something similar to justify their standing in the pecking order of human beings.
I’m aware of wealth inequities. Any developed nation has those. China is starting to develop them, but China is much better off now than they were when they were a third world country. Even the poor are better off. And be aware that half of Americans don’t pay any federal income tax and the rich pay almost all of the federal taxes. All you have to do is study history my friend.
No one is “forced” to work for less. I worked for minimum wage once also, but I eventually found higher paying jobs, so I don’t need to be preached to about “working at the bottom.”
“There is NO law of nature saying Wal-Mart cashiers should be paid peanuts” Actually according to the law of the “free market”, they are paid what they are worth. It's also a low stress job that is easy.
I personally know people who I grew up with who still work as cashiers at grocery stores etc, and they are lazy with no ambition. Their laziness and irresponsibility carries onto their everyday life. Buying brand new cars they can’t afford, having unprotected sex with different women and getting them pregnant, neglecting their health by eating like crap and not exercising. Just poor decision making in general.
Right to work (what an Orwellian euphemism) usually goes hand in hand with "at will employment" (another Orwellian euphemism). If a state is "right to work" it is usually "at will employment" state and vice verse. Correlation is absolutely remarkable, thus both terms are interchangeable from stand point of a wage slave.
Every state is "at will employment." Its a federal law. Some just have certain exceptions. I'm not sure what this has to do with people no actually knowing what a "right to work state" is anyways.
NO matter what you do or what laws you pass, there are always going to be people who are rich and poor, relatively speaking. The "poor" in american aren't really all that poor anyways when compared to the rest of the world. Poor is relative. Most of the poor here have HDTV's, indoor plumbing, housing, food, etc. A lot of people around the world would love to be American "poor".
I’m aware of wealth inequities. Any developed nation has those. China is starting to develop them, but China is much better off now than they were when they were a third world country.
What part of China you are talking about? Managerial, party bosses or miserable wretches who die young making crap for you?
Quote:
Even the poor are better off.
That's questionable. Communist comrades discarded universal health care, universal affordable education, destroyed village communities, turned their citizens into rootless wage nomads (just like yourself), allowed very flexible labor, safety and environmental standards, and so on. Geez, they created right wing paradise folks like yourself dream about. All in the name of modernization. I really doubt that poor are "better off", it's just different kind of poverty, much uglier than old one in many aspects. All is held together by "rag to riches" promise of modernization.
Quote:
And be aware that half of Americans don’t pay any federal income tax and the rich pay almost all of the federal taxes. All you have to do is study history my friend.
Don't be ridiculous. Rich grab bulk of the fruits of common labor by means of universal system of wage slavery. What, you want bottom 40% who owns 0.5% of wealth to pay bulk of the federal taxes? It's impossible to do, arithmetically speaking. Rich grab the bulk of the added value, and you portray rich paying more in taxes as an act of kindness and magnanimity. They own this country.
Quote:
No one is “forced†to work for less. I worked for minimum wage once also, but I eventually found higher paying jobs, so I don’t need to be preached to about “working at the bottom.â€
Sure nobody forces anyone to work, one is just denied access to resources and means of subsistence, sooner or later survival instinct kicks in and people crawl to Wal-Marts and owners of means (paying all those taxes) begging for jobs a.k.a access to survival means. All that rich have to do is to claim ownership of the survival means, put lesser crowd to work and collect. Without slightest doubt you choose minimum wage work because upper management jobs were just too boring for your taste. Roman slaves could move up the Roman social chain and get slaves of their own. Your point? Some move up the pyramidal food chain, most don't because it's impossible within framework of a pyramid.
Quote:
Actually according to the law of the “free marketâ€, they are paid what they are worth. It's also a low stress job that is easy.
"Worth" for whom? Owners? Who gave owners the right to decide what you are "worth", whether you die or live, go hungry or get fed....? Abstraction you call free market? Nope, it's ridiculous, abstraction can't kill you, police & state can. Repressive apparatus of state (owned by those who pay most in taxes) gave owners the right and means to assign "worth" to you. The rest just follows.
There is no law of free market since there is no free market. Free market possible only and only if all of the participants don't act under duress of coercion, incarceration and starvation. Social "contract" defines the rules of real life markets, and we know well who writes those rules in USA.
Quote:
I personally know people who I grew up with who still work as cashiers at grocery stores etc, and they are lazy with no ambition. Their laziness and irresponsibility carries onto their everyday life. Buying brand new cars they can’t afford, having unprotected sex with different women and getting them pregnant, neglecting their health by eating like crap and not exercising. Just poor decision making in general.
Again, you rationalize why one group of people have the right to capitalize on the labors of another group of people. Just 100 years ago folks with your mindset claimed that workers should have neither day offs nor decent pay. Since lower class of human beings cannot handle excess of free time and money. Such a connoisseur of history should know that.
Yes, some really messed up people work low wage jobs (if lucky). So what? First they are product of this society based in status and survival anxiety. Second, provided the right of access to the survival means, even messed up people would not slave for you. Because they value an hour of their life just as much as you value an hour of yours.
Every state is "at will employment." Its a federal law. Some just have certain exceptions. I'm not sure what this has to do with people no actually knowing what a "right to work state" is anyways.
NO matter what you do or what laws you pass, there are always going to be people who are rich and poor, relatively speaking. The "poor" in american aren't really all that poor anyways when compared to the rest of the world. Poor is relative. Most of the poor here have HDTV's, indoor plumbing, housing, food, etc. A lot of people around the world would love to be American "poor".
There would be no striking difference between rich and poor in the wild where no human being can appropriate fruits of labors of another human being. It's a fact. To create enormous wealth inequality one must create a system of laws and violence in order to "encourage" lesser human beings to work on the behalf of the owning elites. So you are 100% wrong. Laws make rich and poors for 10,000 years since invention of agriculture.
I have direct experience of second and third world poverty. I can claim "authoritatively" that American poor are way more miserable overall than their third world counterparts without plumbing. Third world poor who has some sort of community, public land & resources, tradition, etc. are immeasurably better off than a ghetto dweller with an HD TV. It's just too bad that American corporate elites are spreading American kind of poverty around the world to create global system of wage slavery and labor arbitrage. If you take villages, land, common resources and traditions from the third world dwellers, lock that dispossessed mass in the third world slums, that's truly miserable existence.
Last edited by RememberMee; 11-29-2012 at 12:14 PM..
Right to work (what an Orwellian euphemism) usually goes hand in hand with "at will employment" (another Orwellian euphemism). If a state is "right to work" it is usually "at will employment" state and vice verse. Correlation is absolutely remarkable, thus both terms are interchangeable from stand point of a wage slave.
Wow.
Not even close.
23 states are "Right to Work"
ALL states, even those 23, are "At will" except sort of Montana.
So, while ALL right to work states are At will, it only works the other way about half the time...the reason is the concepts HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ONE ANOTHER.
Oh, and the terms are not at all interchangeable.
I am amazed how often people who can post on a message board are seemingly unable to Google.
There would be no striking difference between rich and poor in the wild where no human being can appropriate fruits of labors of another human being. It's a fact. To create enormous wealth inequality one must create a system of laws and violence in order to "encourage" lesser human beings to work on the behalf of the owning elites. So you are 100% wrong. Laws make rich and poors for 10,000 years since invention of agriculture.
I have direct experience of second and third world poverty. I can claim "authoritatively" that American poor are way more miserable overall than their third world counterparts without plumbing. Third world poor who has some sort of community, public land & resources, tradition, etc. are immeasurably better off than a ghetto dweller with an HD TV. It's just too bad that American corporate elites are spreading American kind of poverty around the world to create global system of wage slavery and labor arbitrage. If you take villages, land, common resources and traditions from the third world dwellers, lock that dispossessed mass in the third world slums, that's truly miserable existence.
So you would rather everyone be poor than to have an "owner elite." Who is going to pay for all the social programs and handouts then? The problem with poor impoverished countries is there IS NO ONE TO WORK FOR. In case you haven't figured it out, there is also a middle class who works for the "owner elite."
Most third world countries have no rights or OPPORTUNITIES to progress or become rich. Get real. No reasonable person is going to take your extremest rant seriously. If the fact that other people are more successful or rich than you makes you insecure; Thats your issue!
Study history. There are two systems..Capitalism, with the rich and poor, and Socialism. It's obvious which one is less bad.
So you would rather everyone be poor than to have an "owner elite."
Your claim that without elites everybody was poor has no basis in history. For most of its history human kind didn't have owner-elites. Class division is a product of agricultural revolution 10,000 years ago. As soon as pre agricultural societies produced surpluses of food, folks in charge of distribution of surplus gradually transformed themselves into hereditary elites and owners of formerly common land and resources. Note, it's surpluses lead to elites and NOT elites lead to surpluses . The rest is history.
Quote:
Who is going to pay for all the social programs and handouts then?
Did you copy this question from a speech of a Roman patrician or Southern slave-owner? Slaves without slave owners, how that could be? Your mind definitely cannot comprehend such a possibility.
Quote:
The problem with poor impoverished countries is there IS NO ONE TO WORK FOR.
As far as I remember rugged Latin American "entrepreneurs" still (as of 2012) exterminate Indians unwilling to remove themselves from the Jungle and embrace joys of the slum "lifestyle" and career opportunities in sweatshop biz. The problem of impoverished countries is that poor are robbed of their land, their villages, their resources, their communities and tradition and locked in slums, thus creating pool of desperate people having nothing to sell except their labor. Does it remind you something? Yup, history of pre - industrial Great Britain' repeats itself.
Quote:
In case you haven't figured it out, there is also a middle class who works for the "owner elite."
Mass middle class is a bastard child of the red scare & WWII. It's a fluke, gradually everything goes back to capitalistic "normal" of haves and have nots. You cannot deny the obvious, or can you?
Quote:
Most third world countries have no rights or OPPORTUNITIES to progress or become rich.
Amazing, third world elites virtually own and control their countries. According to you, stupendous inequality is all what is needed to launch lesser human beings into prosperity. How come?
There are no rich (people) without poorer (people) working on their behalf (or just giving up their share of resources). Same is true about countries in the globalized world. There are no rich (countries) without poor (countries) providing rich countries with resources and labor. Poverty of each and every third world country can be traced to its (neo) colonial past and present.
Quote:
Get real. No reasonable person is going to take your extremest rant seriously. If the fact that other people are more successful or rich than you makes you insecure; Thats your issue!
Tell me what rant a reasonable person should take seriously? Your rant about personal efforts and responsibility that can launch each and every low wage unit to infinity and beyond? You can criticize my "philosophy", but it seems that "a reasonable person" of yours would take arithmetically impossible rant seriously.
I shall commend you, you held yourself from reaching for "envy" card for so long, but a girl can only take so much
Quote:
Study history. There are two systems..Capitalism, with the rich and poor, and Socialism. It's obvious which one is less bad.
First, socialism is just state capitalism, just imagine one huge corporation and you'll seamlessly transition from capitalism to socialism. Both systems are two sides of the same coin which is called "industrialism". Industrialism is a social ideology of progress where elites (private or public, it doesn't matter) scientifically manage utilization of mineral, natural and human resources on behalf of the elites, naturally.
There are just two systems in human history and the future. History stops here. How sad, bleak and hopeless you imagine the future of mankind.
Last edited by RememberMee; 11-30-2012 at 01:48 AM..
If you've ever suffered the supreme agony of working in Florida, you will see the outcomes of RTW.
It's another mostly republican/ALEC based assault on workers. Go to USA's Dept. of Labor website where they have actual facts and figures on the disparity between pay and benefits of RTW and non-RTW states. RTW is simply another method used to move us closer being china west, or Calcutta---Work at a government mandated WAL*MART for 90 hours a week/2.00 an hour 'til you die. ---The republican/corporatists dream world. Using he Union as a big, bad boogey man is how they get the uneducated on the subject to fall for the fallacy of RTW.
I REP This...(can't rep you, but thanks for replying to that non sense)!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee
Your claim that without elites everybody was poor has no basis in history. For most of its history human kind didn't have owner-elites. Class division is a product of agricultural revolution 10,000 years ago. As soon as pre agricultural societies produced surpluses of food, folks in charge of distribution of surplus gradually transformed themselves into hereditary elites and owners of formerly common land and resources. Note, it's surpluses lead to elites and NOT elites lead to surpluses . The rest is history.
Did you copy this question from a speech of a Roman patrician or Southern slave-owner? Slaves without slave owners, how that could be? Your mind definitely cannot comprehend such a possibility.
As far as I remember rugged Latin American "entrepreneurs" still (as of 2012) exterminate Indians unwilling to remove themselves from the Jungle and embrace joys of the slum "lifestyle" and career opportunities in sweatshop biz. The problem of impoverished countries is that poor are robbed of their land, their villages, their resources, their communities and tradition and locked in slums, thus creating pool of desperate people having nothing to sell except their labor. Does it remind you something? Yup, history of pre - industrial Great Britain' repeats itself.
Mass middle class is a bastard child of the red scare & WWII. It's a fluke, gradually everything goes back to capitalistic "normal" of haves and have nots. You cannot deny the obvious, or can you?
Amazing, third world elites virtually own and control their countries. According to you, stupendous inequality is all what is needed to launch lesser human beings into prosperity. How come?
There are no rich (people) without poorer (people) working on their behalf (or just giving up their share of resources). Same is true about countries in the globalized world. There are no rich (countries) without poor (countries) providing rich countries with resources and labor. Poverty of each and every third world country can be traced to its (neo) colonial past and present.
Tell me what rant a reasonable person should take seriously? Your rant about personal efforts and responsibility that can launch each and every low wage unit to infinity and beyond? You can criticize my "philosophy", but it seems that "a reasonable person" of yours would take arithmetically impossible rant seriously.
I shall commend you, you held yourself from reaching for "envy" card for so long, but a girl can only take so much
First, socialism is just state capitalism, just imagine one huge corporation and you'll seamlessly transition from capitalism to socialism. Both systems are two sides of the same coin which is called "industrialism". Industrialism is a social ideology of progress where elites (private or public, it doesn't matter) scientifically manage utilization of mineral, natural and human resources on behalf of the elites, naturally.
There are just two systems in human history and the future. History stops here. How sad, bleak and hopeless you imagine the future of mankind.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
. The rest is history.
---The republican/corporatists dream world. 
