A Catch-22 - I want to, but I can't afford the excessive cost (employed, debt)

[YaFace]

Originally Posted by annerk

You and 80,000 other people. Anything you can learn by buying a book is probably not going to be a good career move.

This might be the stupidest thing you have ever said Annerk. EVERYTHING ever learned since the beginning of time has been learned through a book. This poster, if motivated enough, could buy several dozen books on programming, practice this stuff himself, and learn all KINDS of stuff. Now the trick is selling himself to potential employers. A couple well created databases, maybe a couple smoothly ran websites would do the trick. To tell this man that he shouldn't try to self motivate himself, and the only thing worth doing is going tens of thousands of more dollars into debt is foolhardy. Tell that to Bill Gates, Michael Dell, and the other several BILLIONAIRES in IT who are college dropouts but totally self made.

[mcb1025]

Originally Posted by annerk

You and 80,000 other people. Anything you can learn by buying a book is probably not going to be a good career move.

Annerk, I usually respect your posts, but now you're just starting to annoy me. Do you propose that I enroll in college, where some instructor is going to tell me to buy a book anyways (probably all written by him/her), except I'll be paying 40 times more for the education? From your posts, it sounds like you think I'm trying to take the easy way out. Let me tell you something. I already have a four-year degree from a top tier university. I worked my arse off to earn that degree. I don't need somebody that doesn't know me assuming that I don't want to work hard. You don't know my work ethic, nor do you know what I'm capable of. By the way, I used HTML, Javascript, FTP, and Dreamweaver to design and upload the websites for my employer.

As you can see from my other post, I already admit that I have a lot to learn about this rapidly evolving industry, though I think I have a good foundation of knowledge/experience in the field. I'm just trying to figure out the most cost efficient way to build on these skills to the point where I can get a job in the field. Look at what it costs for a college degree these days. On top of the outrageous tuition, you usually have another $1k-$5k in fees tagged onto your bill, most of which go to services that you probably will never use. I am trying to avoid paying for that all over again. I'll put in the hours that I need to fully understand the material. I simply don't want to pay exorbitant amounts in tuition and fees to learn the material.

So I will repeat my questions. Please Annerk or any other user, do not respond unless you are going to offer information or advice that will help me start the process.

Question 1: Which areas of IT are expected to grow and remain stable for the next ten years or so?

Question 2: By self-studying and earning certain certificates, will I be marketable enough to get a position?

Question 3: Which certs, if any, are essential to breaking into the field? Cisco, Novell, Oracle DBA, SQL, MSCE, A+, etc.?

Question 4: There's a $40 A+ book at Barnes and Noble. Is it worth purchasing this book to study for the CompTIA A+ exam? Is the CompTIA exam worth it?

Thanks again for your responses.

[annerk]

Originally Posted by mcb1025

Annerk, I usually respect your posts, but now you're just starting to annoy me. Do you propose that I enroll in college, where some instructor is going to tell me to buy a book anyways (probably all written by him/her), except I'll be paying 40 times more for the education? From your posts, it sounds like you think I'm trying to take the easy way out. Let me tell you something. I already have a four-year degree from a top tier university. I worked my arse off to earn that degree. I don't need somebody that doesn't know me assuming that I don't want to work hard. You don't know my work ethic, nor do you know what I'm capable of. By the way, I used HTML, Javascript, FTP, and Dreamweaver to design and upload the websites for my employer.

Which are things that they teach kids in junior high these days. I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm being realistic. So far you've said nothing on this thread that would make you hirable in the I/T field. I know secretary's that are taking care of the company web site using the same tools. Why would they pay you any "real" money to do so?

Considering that you've already got a four year degree, I'd think about going back to community college and getting a two year degree in computer science--and specifically take a track headed towards security or smartphone platform development.

As you can see from my other post, I already admit that I have a lot to learn about this rapidly evolving industry, though I think I have a good foundation of knowledge/experience in the field. I'm just trying to figure out the most cost efficient way to build on these skills to the point where I can get a job in the field. Look at what it costs for a college degree these days. On top of the outrageous tuition, you usually have another $1k-$5k in fees tagged onto your bill, most of which go to services that you probably will never use. I am trying to avoid paying for that all over again. I'll put in the hours that I need to fully understand the material. I simply don't want to pay exorbitant amounts in tuition and fees to learn the material.

I understand that, but again, you aren't going to learn all of the material you need to know from a $35 book. Not as far as a potential employer is concerned anyhow.

So I will repeat my questions. Please Annerk or any other user, do not respond unless you are going to offer information or advice that will help me start the process.

Question 1: Which areas of IT are expected to grow and remain stable for the next ten years or so?

Security, bioscience, and smartphone platforms.

Question 2: By self-studying and earning certain certificates, will I be marketable enough to get a position?

Not in my opinion. You are up against way too many others doing the same thing--many of whom have a degree in computer something and/or years of hands on experience.

Question 3: Which certs, if any, are essential to breaking into the field? Cisco, Novell, Oracle DBA, SQL, MSCE, A+, etc.?

"The Field" is huge and it depends specifically on what you want to do. I'd figure that out first before I went and got a bunch of random certs--not all of those will be applicable to all jobs.

Question 4: There's a $40 A+ book at Barnes and Noble. Is it worth purchasing this book to study for the CompTIA A+ exam? Is the CompTIA exam worth it?

Thanks again for your responses.

I don't think that with the completely irrelevent to that career path hands on experience (ie some Db design and web design) you'll get a job with just having a certificate. There are a lot of people with years of experience and a handful of those certs that are out of work right now--who is an employer going to hire? Someone with 10 years real world experience and certs, or someone who memorized enough out of a book to pass the test?

Again I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but step back and look at what I've said and tell me it doesn't make sense.

[7 Wishes]

As an ex-IT person, here are my thoughts:

1) A lot of IT jobs are still fairly easy to get when you're young (like the OP) and relatively cheap to an employer, then when you creep past your 30s into your 40s they mostly want you for "contract" jobs that have a somewhat definite length and no benefits.

2) That said, a lot of what annerk and wheelsup said is true, a lot of seemingly "highly technical" functions are done by administrative assistants now (or have gone overseas). Especially web design and low-mid level database work (my old specialty). Now, if you have those skills, you can try to temp as an admin or get a low-level admin job and perhaps work your way up. Admins for very high level execs can make very high 5-figure and occasionally even 6-figure salaries.

3) Finally, there are certain specialties that if you can prove you are outstanding in them, you will still be able to write your own ticket. Many were mentioned already: security (I don't think most firms will be dumb enough to outsouce this), video game design, network administration (again, I did this for a small company.....nowadays you either do it for a big company or you work for a firm that does this for several small companies).

Good luck!

[slomodan]

I think my experience might have some relevance, mcb1025. Going to school may not be your best option, regardless of what annerk advises. I say this only because I graduated an accredited IT related degree in December of last year. I was employed from Feb 2006 to end of April this year in a related field (programming and database admin). It was part-time, and I thought a part time internship (full time during the summers) would be GREAT on my resume, along with a B.S in computer science.

8 months later, I have had 2 interviews, both for entry level positions. I have not heard from either for months, so I'm guessing I didn't qualify somehow. I've applied for thousands of jobs in the last 13 months (I've been searching for a Job since early November of 2008, even though I was employed, I knew my job couldn't land me a full time position due to budget cuts).

So I'm 80k or so in student loan debt with a degree that isn't doing me any good because I don't have certifications or experience (apparently part time experience means jack). To make matters worse, I can't even get a freaking warehouse scrub job cleaning bathrooms or anything because of my degree (I guess, I've certainly applied for those).

You might get lucky though. 2-3 years in college might get you through this recession and you might graduate during a time where IT guys are in short supply.

[yellowsnow]

If you are a good student, you CAN get at least your CCNA, CCNP with just test results. Get the books and study. Find practice exams on sites like examcram. Once you get to the point where you pass consistently, pay to take the test. There may be a few more certs you can get like that too.

Don't test till you are ready to move into your new job. The certs have expiration dates!

[hnsq]

I work in IT as a .NET developer, and IT is still a growing field. It isn't ".com bubble rampant anyone who can turn on a computer will get a job" growth, but there is still healthy growth in the industry.

I don't know what particular cirtifications you could get, however if you want a job in web design (I design the technical back-ends to web sites), you need to build a portfolio, much like an artist. Simply put, get yourself a copy of visual studio or something and start on a website. Being able to put a link to samples of your work on a resume can help a lot. I know many positions for front end web designers put a heavy weight on portfolios of work.

[mcb1025]

Originally Posted by hnsq

I work in IT as a .NET developer, and IT is still a growing field. It isn't ".com bubble rampant anyone who can turn on a computer will get a job" growth, but there is still healthy growth in the industry.

I don't know what particular cirtifications you could get, however if you want a job in web design (I design the technical back-ends to web sites), you need to build a portfolio, much like an artist. Simply put, get yourself a copy of visual studio or something and start on a website. Being able to put a link to samples of your work on a resume can help a lot. I know many positions for front end web designers put a heavy weight on portfolios of work.

I don't really want to do web design, though I do enjoy it as a hobby. I'm considering focusing on either network admin/security or DBA. So my thoughts were to first get an A+ cert, since that seems to help set the foundation for a career in IT. Then I figured I would look at some networking certs like Cisco's CCNA and also Microsoft's MCSE. I was doing some research over the weekend and it seemed that most IT professionals had three certs in common: A+, MCSE, and CCNA. The local community college also had a DBA certification program, so I was considering enrolling in that. The way my roommate and I were figuring, the more certs you have, the better your chances are of getting into the field. Does this theory of ours have any merit?

[subwayfan]

I think its worth it for anyone looking to get into IT, to take a number of related courses, some that are rigorous, to give oneself the basic foundation in the field. After mastery of those courses, its worth take upon any related internship/practical experience/employment, even if it means taking a lapse from the curriculum to finish. The applying for these positions should occur while one is in the courses.

I would suggest against following the curriculum by the advisor pushes. The school advisor will push for you to finish, leaving a false imprint that the graduation will empower you. But you'll be depressed if you finished with the big loan for all the semesters worth of tuition, and no job. So it worth it taking courses, self-learning (by books) and internships, but before just finishing the degree.

Anyways this advice is more applicable for those that already have a B.S. in another field, looking to get a career in an IT path.

[mwv]

Formal coursework in network administration (the real "I.T.") is largely pointless. What you need is low level experience, and then work your way up through that and also self-study. Most of this work is digital plumbing, and you need hands on time.

Software work is very different. For that, a real computer science (not programming!) or software engineering degree is the best way to go.