Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Hello, we bought a piece of property in Cheyenne 2 years ago and didn't get a chance to apply for our mineral rights. Please advise on how to get it done.
You can check with the realty company that represented you in the purchase transaction, or ask the title company that did the closing about possible mineral rights.
Be forewarned, however, that subsurface mineral rights are a totally separate ownership item than surface rights, and most likely have been owned by somebody else for many, many years before your surface ownership. Unless these rights were mentioned at the time of your purchase contract, it's unlikely that they're available or for sale at this time.
Hello, we bought a piece of property in Cheyenne 2 years ago and didn't get a chance to apply for our mineral rights. Please advise on how to get it done.
I'd be very surprised if there were any mineral rights transferred to you with the property, especially sub surface ones. Most have been bought up years ago. You should have gotten a title insurance policy when you closed as well as the status of the rights should have been stated on the buy/sell contract you signed. You 'did' buy with a contract as part of the 'deal', right? If you don't have either the title insurance nor a contract, contact the nearest title insurance co and have them pull the info for you. Yes, you'll have to pay them.
Am I right in thinking that subsurface mineral rights precede surface rights?
Correct. This is why it's such a big deal around here when a mineral right holder starts to work their claim and it adversely impacts the surface use of the land. A very surprised landowner may find new roads, new soil contamination, new water contamination, and other impacts upon their land as a result of extractive activity.
Correct. This is why it's such a big deal around here when a mineral right holder starts to work their claim and it adversely impacts the surface use of the land. A very surprised landowner may find new roads, new soil contamination, new water contamination, and other impacts upon their land as a result of extractive activity.
There is activity in Cheyenne to find an equitable way to deal with split rights - that is, one owner for surface rights and a different owner for the subsurface rights. No question, something has to be worked out, but for now, yup, you could be living on a parcel and discover that someone else has the right to drill/mine on your land. That's why it's SO important to be sure all rights, water and mineral, are in your favor "before" you buy any land in Wyoming.
There is activity in Cheyenne to find an equitable way to deal with split rights - that is, one owner for surface rights and a different owner for the subsurface rights. No question, something has to be worked out, but for now, yup, you could be living on a parcel and discover that someone else has the right to drill/mine on your land. That's why it's SO important to be sure all rights, water and mineral, are in your favor "before" you buy any land in Wyoming.
Not quite. What's important to know before you buy land or real estate in Wyoming is to know what it is you are buying.
If there's a "split parcel", with mineral rights owned by somebody else (a most likely scenario), then you need to know if there's extractive activity in the area and how likely the rights owners are in the near future to begin exploration and extraction on your surface parcel, if at all. If you're buying a parcel where they've already explored and found no mineral source of value, then you're pretty much in the clear. If you see lots of activity in the area, you'd better be asking how likely it is going to happen on your parcel.
If there's irrigation/ag water rights to your property, you need to know the source and how much water "right" you're buying, along with the seniority of your "right". You should also investigate how much of that water "right" water has functionally been delivered for the last few years, and how likely that water delivery is to continue in the near term. A visit with the State Engineer is essential, not a chat with the real estate agent who owes his primary responsibility to the seller. In my experience, most Wyoming agents don't know about these issues, or will lie, misrepresent, or mislead you into some thinking that is beneficial and favorable to your purchase; do not rely upon their guidance and advice when it comes to water in Wyoming. Check it out for yourself with the appropriate regulatory authorities.
You must always investigate the quality and delivery of the domestic water, which is a separate issue from "ag" water.
And the same can be said for "livestock" water sources. Know how much water "right" you're buying and how much water has functionally been available.
Case in point ... a large local landholder, well respected and known for his quality hay production ... sold 6 pivots in SE Wyoming about a year ago. On three of those pivots, he'd drilled his own wells far away from public view from the local roads. Neighbors "assumed" he'd gotten permits for expanding the existing wells on the property, and didn't ask any questions. Upon sale of all the "irrigated" properties, it was "discovered" by the new owners (after the family farm auction sale) that they had no irrigation water rights for those 3 wells; No rights to transfer ownership into their own names, No seniority, No water for their pivots ... dryland. The worst part about it was that they had no recourse against the seller except to sue for the apparent misrepresentation. That's right ... it was not illegal for the seller to sell the properties with the pivots on them and say that he'd gotten a certain alfalfa tonnage per acre per year off those fields ... which could only happen with irrigation in this area; it was up to the BUYER to be sure that the implied water right went with the land. The joke was on them ... $800/acre dryland wheat farm acreage sold for almost $3,000/acre as irrigated farmland. In a very strict sense, the real estate agent/auction house should have been knowledgeable about what they were selling, but none of the buyers asked about the water right documentation (well permit #'s, senority date) ... and the real estate agents/auction house allowed the false impression to remain. The buyers had no agent representing their interests as they bought the properties at auction from the estate sale. For the rest of us, the insult was that the State Engineer was powerless to discipline or fine the well driller in any way for stealing all that water all these years; the only thing they could do now was to "tag" the wells in the off position and tell the new owners to file for a water right, seniority year 2007, very unlikely to have functional water ever. But they do have some very nice Zimmatic pivots available now for sale.
I'd like to stress again here that the level of real estate sales competency, ethics, service and candor that you may have come to expect as "normal" in many other states is not what you'll find in Wyoming. You are going to find the only people interested in your situation are YOU. YOU must do all the hard part, even though the laws of this state and the real estate license commission have certain standards and rules for performance. Don't count on it happening or being enforced if there's a error or omission by a licensed real estate agent or brokerage. I even caught one agent selling property he wasn't licensed to sell, and the managing broker/owner/realtor basically told me "tough sh**, sue me if you want to" when they would not deliver the title to the property I'd bought in good faith. Oh, of course they'd gotten their commission checks in full at the closing. And, I've had title companies camp out on paperwork for months ... the only reason I finally got one purchase filed (again, paid for in full at closing with certified funds) was because the owner of the title company is a practicing lawyer and I told him I was going to scream to the bar association and his legal practice insurance company if they didn't perform per the fees which they'd been paid in a timely manner.
I wish I could say that these real estate land deals in Wyoming were the exception to the norm ... but, out of 8 real estate deals I've done in Wyoming, 7 were "botched" by the pro's in many ways. As a small time owner/investor, that's a pretty bad percentage of "good performance" when I've shown up with certified funds and full intentions to close a deal and receive that for which I've paid.
So, do your own "due diligence" when buying properties in Wyoming. Talk to the neighbors about their water, the fences, etc.
You may find out, as a new neighbor to me did ... that the existing fence (been there since 1880's) at one "edge" of the subdivided ranch parcel he bought is not where his property line is ... by over 1,000' at one corner. His parcel is much, much smaller than he visualized, although he is getting the acreage he purchased. I didn't fence it off the acreage due to the expense and that the ranch owner considered the area "open range" ... so if it was OK by him that my horses and sheep were grazing on my land (past that fence) and onto his land (and it was OK by him, it kept the weeds down and the pasture in better shape), it was OK by me. Well, now we've got to build a new fence ... but at least I've got a new neighbor who is going to split the cost with me for over 1/2 mile of 5-wire cattle fence. He won't be running livestock, so I'm being nice by splitting the cost with him ... otherwise, I'd still be running my livestock on the "open range" that he owns adjacent to my land ... it's his responsibility to "fence out" my livestock from his 40 acre parcel. See, there's another little detail you need to know about a Wyoming land purchase .... Wyoming is virtually all "open range" and "fence out" land. Think about what your neighbors do with their property and how it may affect your use and quiet enjoyment of your land .... and what it may cost you to protect that right.
Similarly, another neighbor bought a 65 acre parcel adjacent to one of my pivot circles. Built his house right adjacent to the property line where my pivot comes closest to his house (a real smart move, right?). Sometimes, the end gun doesn't shut off like it should ... or the wind carries the moisture from the sprinkler ... right into his back porch/patio area. I was checking the nozzles the other night and he was out there trying to bar-b-que on his patio in the rainstorm from my pivot. I don't believe that was a "friendly" wave he gave me as I rode past the sprinkler line on my 6x6. Too bad, pal ... you had 65 acres to site your house, and you chose to put it as close as possible to the property line and my pivot; this is your problem, not mine. There'd have been no problem if he'd put his house anywhere .... even a couple hundred feet further away ... else on his 65 acres, or closer to the road where it would have been more accessible in the winter months. And y'know ... pivot sprinklers aren't silent when they're moving and irrigating ... and it takes hours for it to pass by the portion of travel near his house. I need to irrigate at night when it's hot outside ....
Not quite. What's important to know before you buy land or real estate in Wyoming is to know what it is you are buying.
If there's a "split parcel", with mineral rights owned by somebody else (a most likely scenario), then you need to know if there's extractive activity in the area and how likely the rights owners are in the near future to begin exploration and extraction on your surface parcel, if at all. If you're buying a parcel where they've already explored and found no mineral source of value, then you're pretty much in the clear. If you see lots of activity in the area, you'd better be asking how likely it is going to happen on your parcel.
If there's irrigation/ag water rights to your property, you need to know the source and how much water "right" you're buying, along with the seniority of your "right". You should also investigate how much of that water "right" water has functionally been delivered for the last few years, and how likely that water delivery is to continue in the near term. A visit with the State Engineer is essential, not a chat with the real estate agent who owes his primary responsibility to the seller. In my experience, most Wyoming agents don't know about these issues, or will lie, misrepresent, or mislead you into some thinking that is beneficial and favorable to your purchase; do not rely upon their guidance and advice when it comes to water in Wyoming. Check it out for yourself with the appropriate regulatory authorities.
You must always investigate the quality and delivery of the domestic water, which is a separate issue from "ag" water.
And the same can be said for "livestock" water sources. Know how much water "right" you're buying and how much water has functionally been available.
Case in point ... a large local landholder, well respected and known for his quality hay production ... sold 6 pivots in SE Wyoming about a year ago. On three of those pivots, he'd drilled his own wells far away from public view from the local roads. Neighbors "assumed" he'd gotten permits for expanding the existing wells on the property, and didn't ask any questions. Upon sale of all the "irrigated" properties, it was "discovered" by the new owners (after the family farm auction sale) that they had no irrigation water rights for those 3 wells; No rights to transfer ownership into their own names, No seniority, No water for their pivots ... dryland. The worst part about it was that they had no recourse against the seller except to sue for the apparent misrepresentation. That's right ... it was not illegal for the seller to sell the properties with the pivots on them and say that he'd gotten a certain alfalfa tonnage per acre per year off those fields ... which could only happen with irrigation in this area; it was up to the BUYER to be sure that the implied water right went with the land. The joke was on them ... $800/acre dryland wheat farm acreage sold for almost $3,000/acre as irrigated farmland. In a very strict sense, the real estate agent/auction house should have been knowledgeable about what they were selling, but none of the buyers asked about the water right documentation (well permit #'s, senority date) ... and the real estate agents/auction house allowed the false impression to remain. The buyers had no agent representing their interests as they bought the properties at auction from the estate sale. For the rest of us, the insult was that the State Engineer was powerless to discipline or fine the well driller in any way for stealing all that water all these years; the only thing they could do now was to "tag" the wells in the off position and tell the new owners to file for a water right, seniority year 2007, very unlikely to have functional water ever. But they do have some very nice Zimmatic pivots available now for sale.
I'd like to stress again here that the level of real estate sales competency, ethics, service and candor that you may have come to expect as "normal" in many other states is not what you'll find in Wyoming. You are going to find the only people interested in your situation are YOU. YOU must do all the hard part, even though the laws of this state and the real estate license commission have certain standards and rules for performance. Don't count on it happening or being enforced if there's a error or omission by a licensed real estate agent or brokerage. I even caught one agent selling property he wasn't licensed to sell, and the managing broker/owner/realtor basically told me "tough sh**, sue me if you want to" when they would not deliver the title to the property I'd bought in good faith. Oh, of course they'd gotten their commission checks in full at the closing. And, I've had title companies camp out on paperwork for months ... the only reason I finally got one purchase filed (again, paid for in full at closing with certified funds) was because the owner of the title company is a practicing lawyer and I told him I was going to scream to the bar association and his legal practice insurance company if they didn't perform per the fees which they'd been paid in a timely manner.
I wish I could say that these real estate land deals in Wyoming were the exception to the norm ... but, out of 8 real estate deals I've done in Wyoming, 7 were "botched" by the pro's in many ways. As a small time owner/investor, that's a pretty bad percentage of "good performance" when I've shown up with certified funds and full intentions to close a deal and receive that for which I've paid.
So, do your own "due diligence" when buying properties in Wyoming. Talk to the neighbors about their water, the fences, etc.
You may find out, as a new neighbor to me did ... that the existing fence (been there since 1880's) at one "edge" of the subdivided ranch parcel he bought is not where his property line is ... by over 1,000' at one corner. His parcel is much, much smaller than he visualized, although he is getting the acreage he purchased. I didn't fence it off the acreage due to the expense and that the ranch owner considered the area "open range" ... so if it was OK by him that my horses and sheep were grazing on my land (past that fence) and onto his land (and it was OK by him, it kept the weeds down and the pasture in better shape), it was OK by me. Well, now we've got to build a new fence ... but at least I've got a new neighbor who is going to split the cost with me for over 1/2 mile of 5-wire cattle fence. He won't be running livestock, so I'm being nice by splitting the cost with him ... otherwise, I'd still be running my livestock on the "open range" that he owns adjacent to my land ... it's his responsibility to "fence out" my livestock from his 40 acre parcel. See, there's another little detail you need to know about a Wyoming land purchase .... Wyoming is virtually all "open range" and "fence out" land. Think about what your neighbors do with their property and how it may affect your use and quiet enjoyment of your land .... and what it may cost you to protect that right.
Similarly, another neighbor bought a 65 acre parcel adjacent to one of my pivot circles. Built his house right adjacent to the property line where my pivot comes closest to his house (a real smart move, right?). Sometimes, the end gun doesn't shut off like it should ... or the wind carries the moisture from the sprinkler ... right into his back porch/patio area. I was checking the nozzles the other night and he was out there trying to bar-b-que on his patio in the rainstorm from my pivot. I don't believe that was a "friendly" wave he gave me as I rode past the sprinkler line on my 6x6. Too bad, pal ... you had 65 acres to site your house, and you chose to put it as close as possible to the property line and my pivot; this is your problem, not mine. There'd have been no problem if he'd put his house anywhere .... even a couple hundred feet further away ... else on his 65 acres, or closer to the road where it would have been more accessible in the winter months. And y'know ... pivot sprinklers aren't silent when they're moving and irrigating ... and it takes hours for it to pass by the portion of travel near his house. I need to irrigate at night when it's hot outside ....
It's too bad you've had such crummy experiences with Realtors in Wyoming. Since I was one, starting in Jackson and ending in Cody, I'll obviously take exception to your blanket statements. Yes, everyone needs to do their due dilligence. But, there are competent realtors in Wyoming. In Jackson, where I learned the business, a Realtor will find themselves in court very quickly if they are remiss in their dealings with the ultra wealthy, ultra successful people from out-of-Wyoming. It's probably from Teton County that the "mess" with easements and access came to light and the public has become aware of the problems. The training in Teton County for Realtors is second to none. I used that training in all aspects as I moved on to Cody. I've run into some of the Realtors that are deficient in many dealings from contracts to "free" advice given to clients. I'll agree with your points about due dilligence. Do your homework and don't rely on just one source for information - whether buying real property or buying a car. It's always Buyer Beware! But, don't paint us all with the same brush. I'd think that after 7 out of 8 "botched" dealings in your part of Wyoming, you'd have learned something and gone another route!
It's too bad you've had such crummy experiences with Realtors in Wyoming. Since I was one, starting in Jackson and ending in Cody, I'll obviously take exception to your blanket statements. Yes, everyone needs to do their due dilligence. But, there are competent realtors in Wyoming. In Jackson, where I learned the business, a Realtor will find themselves in court very quickly if they are remiss in their dealings with the ultra wealthy, ultra successful people from out-of-Wyoming. It's probably from Teton County that the "mess" with easements and access came to light and the public has become aware of the problems. The training in Teton County for Realtors is second to none. I used that training in all aspects as I moved on to Cody. I've run into some of the Realtors that are deficient in many dealings from contracts to "free" advice given to clients. I'll agree with your points about due dilligence. Do your homework and don't rely on just one source for information - whether buying real property or buying a car. It's always Buyer Beware! But, don't paint us all with the same brush. I'd think that after 7 out of 8 "botched" dealings in your part of Wyoming, you'd have learned something and gone another route!
Sorry if you find my "blanket" assessment of real estate agents in Wyoming to be so poor, but I've tried to work with agents/brokerages throughout the entire state, and repeatedly had the same poor level of service ... you might be the exception to what I've experienced, but I can certainly report on what I've dealt with. I've dealt with over Wyoming 50 agents in good faith (and with ready cash in hand and motivated as a buyer ... an agent's "dream" client. I don't need to get loan approval, my wife's permission, or any other outside approval, I'm big boy and can make my own decisions and offers NOW on residential, commercial, farm/ranch, income, multi, etc.) to locate properties meeting my criteria, and have been consistently disappointed in all the misrepresentations of fact and fundamental issues regarding the properties.
It's most certainly not by accident that I learned that I had to personally check surveys and property boundaries, water rights/quality/functional availability, construction defects, un approved or misused zoning, environmental issues and site contamination, misrepresented inventories/cash flow, highly inflated production per acre reports, short sales that didn't have a chance in hell of being approved by a secured lender, irrigation systems that hadn't seen water in 8 years, domestic water wells that were "good" but couldn't produce 2 GPM on my casual test, tenant's "side" agreements with landlords, etc., etc., etc. And I'm fortunate I can read a listing document and spot the unusual exclusions to a property while the agent is telling me about items that are "staying" with a property ... but aren't, per the contract, like permanently installed feedlot equipment and machinery. Or restrictive covenants to a property by a HOA that just happens to be the use for which I want to have the property and the agent is telling me it's OK, they'll approve the variance ... only they won't and even went to court over it with a prior owner.
Frankly, I believe that if I told an agent in this state in a town that I was going to open up a whorehouse and porn store two blocks from the elementary school and just across the parking lot from the biggest church in town (just across from the Post Office and Municipal Building/General Store), they'd be telling me it was OK and that I could use the church parking lot for free on Friday and Saturday nights and they'd want to know if I was going to open a retail liquor drive-through because I'd need the retail spirits license and they knew how to get one of those for me, too. Just how soon were you planning on opening for business? Will you be employing local women? Are there job opportunities for our junior and high school kids? Will you be putting signage up on the highway frontage to bring business into town? Do you have any pictures of your employees?
FWIW, I previously held an agent's license in a neighboring state where agent performance was held to a much higher standard, legally and ethically, and driven by serious competition in the business. So I know what "good" agents are about in this business. If that isn't enough of a reference background to measure the "found money" level of ignorance as a standard of just about every Wyoming agent I've dealt with ... and some of them in the Jackson area, Star Valley (Afton) area, Buffalo, Gillette, Hullette, Cheyenne, Laramie, Cody, Lander, and many other towns ... my MIL was an "owner-broker" (in another state with a very competitive RE market) for 30 years, and my former in-laws were all RELAX (obviously, the name's changed here) agency owners with almost 100 agents in their shop. Suffice to say I've had a lot of training in the RE business on a day-to-day basis where success meant our family financial survival. I'm seasoned and experienced from both sides of the table.
Which is why 7 out of 8 deals were kept together by my efforts to a successful conclusion, and not by the agents that I had to deal with because their office had the listing contract. The deals I've made since? I write my own contracts, and don't deal with real estate agents. I go directly to sellers and buyers with my offers and we keep the other folks out of the deal. If we need legal clarification, I've got a good attorney who bills $175/hour and knows his Wyoming stuff ... the most we've spent is a few hours of his time. Sure beats seeing 6 or 7% of the deal going into the pockets of those agents who didn't bring anything of value to the parties in the deal (and some of them wouldn't even "show" us properties .... just gave us vague directions to a place so we could drive by and see if it interested us, they weren't going to miss their luncheon date and hair appointment ... and we're talking high 6 figure properties with a pretty good hit at 6% commission at stake). I've had agents walk into their offices an hour late for our appointment to meet and start by ignoring me in their reception area and checking their "in" box for messages, and downloading voicemail ... while the receptionist just stood idly by, ignoring us, too .... I understand being delayed by many factors, but a mobile phone call is a lot better way to establish a professional rapport with me when I've driven or flown for hours to make a meeting on time in a distant Wyoming town.
As I've mentioned, I've always walked into a RE office, identified myself as serious, motivated, capable, qualified, financially able, and interested in properties that had potential or could be shown to have an upside with modest effort and money. Short of laying down a briefcase full of cash, my approach has rarely gotten a yawn from a Wyoming real estate agent in over 45 offices. I'll bet that I've got a lot more exposure to the business than the average single family homebuyer who's just trying to get one residential house in this state ... and the experience hasn't been too good here. Go back through the threads about this issue in Wyoming and you'll see the numerous times folks have complained about this as a problem for them trying to move here .... I'm not the only one on this site who has had the problem and poor experience. A few posters have said they had a good experience with a certain agent ... congrats to them ... but when asked who it was, they would/could not identify the agent, even in a PM. Knowing as I do full well the "bad attitude" of several managing brokers here in Cheyenne, I can assure you that it's a corporate culture we're dealing with ... or at least, their agents I dealt with were just as bad as the management.
And you don't even want to start me on the local lenders in some of the smaller independent banks ... I've had two times where I had a deal put together with a seller holding a property that was in a bank's repo file and a bank VP squashed the deal at the last minute (a day before closing) by asserting that I wasn't qualified by their lending standard to make the loan. Well, obviously we didn't get that far through the loan approval process with full disclosures and verified bank statements and income levels to then have a big unknown red flag crop up to deny the deal at the last moment and unable to disclose to me what my deficiency might be .... somebody in that bank wanted to have the property from that repo file for themselves. Unethical? possibly illegal? Yes, but it's happened to me twice in Wyoming. And, for that matter, once in Denver with one of the largest banks in the area .... I caught their VP with his hand in the cookie jar and it came down to completing the deal as scheduled and approved or the bank was looking at the possibility of a new member of the board of directors after my proposed call to the Fed's at the regional banking district ..... It's why I don't look to lenders to do RE deals anymore. I either use my own funds or line of credit from an independent/secured source unrelated to the RE deal. If I don't have the money at the time, then I'm not a player ... if I do, RE has been good to me for the last 40 years.
Frankly, I believe that if I told an agent in this state in a town that I was going to open up a whorehouse and porn store two blocks from the elementary school and just across the parking lot from the biggest church in town (just across from the Post Office and Municipal Building/General Store), they'd be telling me it was OK and that I could use the church parking lot for free on Friday and Saturday nights and they'd want to know if I was going to open a retail liquor drive-through because I'd need the retail spirits license and they knew how to get one of those for me, too. Just how soon were you planning on opening for business? Will you be employing local women? Are there job opportunities for our junior and high school kids? Will you be putting signage up on the highway frontage to bring business into town? Do you have any pictures of your employees?
ROFLMAO!!!
Sunsprit, you're very blunt and to the point! I love reading your posts.
Dea
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Mineral Rights
