Why do Afrocentists try to relate themselves to Egypt rather than claim their real history? (life, influence)
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"Archaeology does not provide the only data supporting an African origin for the ancient Egyptians. Studies of both ancient Egyptian and sub-Saharan African cultures have uncovered numerous similarities. This is not to say that African cultures are homogeneous or that Egyptian culture did not develop its own unique characteristics, but it does add more support to the argument that Egyptian civilization evolved from a common African cultural substratum."
"This becomes especially apparent when one looks at Egypt's early history. As discussed previously, prehistoric Egyptians were semi-sedentary cattle-herders moving between the Nile Valley and the high savanna every year; this lifestyle is still practiced by some Sudanese groups today (Ryle 1982). In addition, archaeologist Timothy Kendall (2010) makes a congent case for the Egyptian spiritual concept of the "ka" having evolved from a Sudanese-style cattle culture. Early Egyptians also shared with their Sudanese counterparts the ritual sacrifice of royal servants to accompany departed kings into the afterlife (Ehret 1996)."
"Many other Egyptian religious practices have close African parallels. Both ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharan Africans considered their king to have a godlike nature and the veneration of ancestral spirits was pivotal in both Egyptian and sub-Saharan religions (Bell 1996, Kusimba 1996). Kusimba and Yurco (1996) report that animals play a prominent role in both Egyptian and other African religions, with Egyptians and sub-Saharan peoples sharing a belief that divinity can be manifested in any form. The Egyptian conception of divinity is also similar to that of other Africans in another respect: Taiwo (2005) describes the Yoruba of Nigeria as believing in multiple divinities that are really manifestations of one Supreme Creator named Olodumare, whereas Allen (1997), citing an Egyptian papyrus, says that all of the characters in Egyptian mythology frequently called "gods" were really manifestations of one creator deity named Amun. This quasi-monotheistic belief system appears to have evolved from one similar to that still practiced by some southwest Ethiopian groups (Ehret 1996)."
"Egyptians also resembled other Africans in the way they treated women; although both Egyptian and sub-Saharan African cultures tended to be male-dominated, both let women play a noteworthy role in economic, religious, and political arenas inaccessible to their Near Eastern and Mediterranean contemporaries (Lesko 1999). For example, one Egyptian mural in the New Kingdom tomb of Sennutem shows men and women working together in the fields, reflecting the widespread African custom of having women contribute significantly to agricultural work. In addition, both Egyptian pharaohs and sub-Saharan African rulers frequently gave their wives substantial influence at the political court."
"Even such quintessentially Egyptian customs like mummification and the construction of large royal tombs are shared by other Africans. Budge (1973) observes that a number of sub-Saharan peoples would smoke-dry their deceased kings and wrap them in cloth to preserve them, and Seligman (1932) reports that some Sudanese tribes would bury important religious figures in large burial mounds that recall Egypt's pyramids."
"The final cultural component that will be mentioned here is language. As Ehret (1996) shows, Afroasiatic, the linguistic phylum to which ancient Egyptian belongs, is ultimately of Northeast African origin, but much Egyptian vocabulary also appears to have been borrowed from another African language phylum called Nilo-Saharan (one example of a Nilo-Saharan language is the Maasai language of Kenya)."
"What has just been reproduced is far from a complete list of parallels between ancient Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, but it should suffice to show that much of the Egyptian culture emerged from a similar substratum to many other cultures distributed throughout the African continent."
Lesko, Barbara S. The Great Goddesses of Egypt. Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma Press, 1999.
Kusimba, Chapurukha M. "Ancestor Worship and Divine Kingship in Sub-Saharan Africa." In Egypt in Africa, compiled by Theodore Celenko, 59-61. Indianapolis: Indianapolis Museum of Art and Indiana University Press, 1996
Egypt had no effect on Africa other than the Sudanese.
You go right ahead.
Other than Sudan, name them and the SPECIFIC instances of hieroglyphic writing, pyramid building, and Maat found throughout the rest of Africa. Name on country that continued to be influenced by Ancient Egypt.
Dear lord, the ones I recognize support my position. I quoted Brace.
ThePredynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are moreclosely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, theyshow ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, moreremotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia... ...Oceania,or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities intrivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southwardthrough Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, thegradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptiveresponse to selective forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur...
...We conclude thatthe Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have beenlargely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted,Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well
So why don't you go ahead and explain how these random "sources" you posted in any way support your absurd position?
I only mentioned Brace because of this statement.
"Where human traits have adaptive significance, their distributions are determined
by the distribution of the controlling selective forces and “there are no races,
there are only clines.” Where traits have no adaptive significance, neighbors will
share traits with neighbors and the analysis of adjacent samples will show that
they cluster together. Both situations occur in the Nile valley. The quantity of
melanin in the skin increases from the delta in the north up the Nile into the
tropics, reaching a maximum at the equator in the south. Neighboring populations
hare trivial traits with each other
to the extent that they form clusters based on
relationships and strictly in proportion
to breeding distance.
The old-fashioned chimerical concept of “race” is hopelessly inadequate
to deal
with the human biological reality of Egypt, ancient or modern. But neither the use
clines nor clusters alone can present a complete account. An assessment of
both is necessary before we can understand the biological nature of the people of the Nile valley."
Brace is definitely not the end all on authoritative sources on the origins of Egyptian culture.
I figured if I cited mainly African or African American scholars you may deem them as unauthoritative or too Afrocentric lol.
Egypt had no effect on Africa other than the Sudanese.
You go right ahead.
Other than Sudan, name them and the SPECIFIC instances of hieroglyphic writing, pyramid building, and Maat found throughout the rest of Africa. Name on country that continued to be influenced by Ancient Egypt.
Dear lord, the ones I recognize support my position. I quoted Brace.
ThePredynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are moreclosely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, theyshow ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, moreremotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia... ...Oceania,or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities intrivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southwardthrough Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, thegradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptiveresponse to selective forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur...
...We conclude thatthe Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have beenlargely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted,Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well
So why don't you go ahead and explain how these random "sources" you posted in any way support your absurd position?
Haha this is ridiculous. You admit there was cultural influence with Sudan, but all along you were saying Egypt didn’t have an effect on Africa.... So what, Sudan isn’t African? Is Sudan not “sub-Saharan” enough for you? It’s pathetic how much criteria needs to be met by you to understand Egypt’s cultural ties with Africa.
Not to mention, besides jkc2j's posts, we've already shown the shared culture between Ancient Egypt and other Africans, like my post way back here which proves you wrong so you reject it: https://www.city-data.com/forum/33052373-post438.html
And there doesn't need to be just things like pyramids (which Sudan has) or hieroglyphics or religious concepts like ma'at for there to be links to Africa. You love to say Rome and Greece influenced Europe, yet why are no Europeans today worshiping their gods like Zeus or Mars? You see, not every single cultural element needs to be adopted for one culture/ethnic group to be similar to another. SOME elements are shared, others are unique, which Egypt was, though it came from the same roots as other African peoples of its time.
Furthermore you once again show you don’t understand what your “sources” are saying. If you really studied your sources (and read the whole studies not excerpts) you’d know that ones like Brace actually severely contradict your dream of a non-black Egypt. Your beloved study by Brace can't be considered a legitimate case for your argument. In fact it goes against your unsupported beliefs.
Brace's study is explained here:
Quote:
“One approach, although limited, with which to explore the possibility of migration in earlier times, is through analysis of cranio-metric affinities. Previous studies have not specifically addressed the immigration of farmers from Europe into the Nile Valley. However, Brace et al. (1993) find that a series of upper Egyptian/Nubian epipalaeolithic crania affiliate by cluster analysis with groups they designate “sub-Saharan African” or just simply “African” (from which they incorrectly exclude the Maghreb, Sudan, and the Horn of Africa), whereas post-Badarian southern predynastic and a late dynastic northern series (called “E” or Gizeh) cluster together, and secondarily with Europeans. In the primary cluster with the Egyptian groups are also remains representing populations from the ancient Sudan and recent Somalia. Brace et al. (1993) seemingly interpret these results as indicating a population relationship from Scandinavia to the Horn of Africa, although the mechanism for this is not clearly stated; they also state that the Egyptians had no relationship with sub-Saharan Africans, a group that they nearly treat (incorrectly) as monolithic, although sometimes seemingly including Somalia, which directly undermines aspects of their claims. Sub-Saharan Africa does not define/delimit authentic Africanity.”
Note that the “late dynastic northern series (called “E” or Gizeh)” studied by Brace includes the 26th-30th dynasty which is, guess what, a non-Egyptian dynasty founded primarily by non-Egyptians so of course people from this Late Period would share more affinities with Europeans. Because as I posted before, there is a consensus with later researchers that Late Period Egyptians show notable biological differences from the people of earlier periods.
Also, importantly: Brace has a habit of on the one hand excluding Somalia and the Horn from “sub-Saharan Africa” yet on another conclude that people of the Horn and Ancient Egypt cluster together. What do people from Somalia look like? Hmmmm....
Last edited by seanturner; 03-06-2014 at 07:04 PM..
I think it is likely because Egypt is the most famous and well known civilization in Africa, and quite frankly to most Westerners (more so Americans, since I can't really speak on Europeans) the other civilizations are a mystery.
If there was more coverage on other African kingdoms I am sure Afrocentric people would "claim" that as their real history.
DNA Tribe data was admittedly falsified? Based on what?
Had you read through the thread, you would know. I will re-post it eventually, but I am going to stretch things out a bit to demonstrate how...well...let be generous and say intellectually incurious... you actually are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
The whole point of me posting DNA stats was to show you how easy it was to pull information from the web to support either side of the debate.
I posted something like two dozen studies from the best scientists from different fields who have studied it, and you posted one study that was admitted falsified AND ANTOHER THAT SUPPORTS ME.
Good show. Keep it up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
The only thing you show as proof to back up your argument is post #529, which is fine but it doesn't tell the full story. I'd rather focus on historical, cultural anthropological and archeological evidence to support my claims.
Post 529 does tell the entire story. The Egyptians are the same people that they always were. There is no debate what-so-ever on the subject amongst scientists. Showing that the Nubians might have contributed some things to pre-dynastic Egypt does not change who the Egyptians were, and it sure does not make them West Africans.
Bro, did you even bother looking up any of the works I cited?
Since you posted no links, nor snippets, how could I?
The one morphological study you cited ACTUALLY SUPPORTS ME. You are working against yourself because, well, lets be frank- you have never read what you cited.
A lot of if is outdated? Now I know you didn't bother looking up any of the works lol.
You know absolutely nothing. The origins of Egypt are known to come from all directions- but a great deal of what was once attributed to the Nubians is now known to have originated in Hierakonpolis.
It is all irrelevant anyway- Egypt has nothing to do with modern African American Afrocentrists.
Nor were the Egyptians ever a different people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkc2j
Just like the Greeks and Romans may not have been your ancestors. Yet you still claim them as your own(As most Eurocentric's do) Show me evidence that the Slavs, Celts, Basically any tribe that originated in Northern Europe had anything to do with the "foundation" of Greco Roman culture and I'll gladly retract my statement.
Other way around. All of these other people eventually took on Greek and Roman knowledge and contributed to the advancement of Western civilization. No such similar thing happened in Africa with Egyptian civilization, accept in Nubia.
By the way, I am a quarter Italian. The Romans are my ancestors. As Italy was heavily populated by Greek colonists, I almost certainly have Greek blood as well. And since the Romans colonized Spain, France and Britain..well, you get the point. Europe is more tightly related by blood and culture. It is just a fact.
Had you read through the thread, you would know. I will re-post it eventually, but I am going to stretch things out a bit to demonstrate how...well...let be generous and say intellectually incurious... you actually are.
I posted something like two dozen studies from the best scientists from different fields who have studied it, and you posted one study that was admitted falsified AND ANTOHER THAT SUPPORTS ME.
Good show. Keep it up.
Post 529 does tell the entire story. The Egyptians are the same people that they always were. There is no debate what-so-ever on the subject amongst scientists. Showing that the Nubians might have contributed some things to pre-dynastic Egypt does not change who the Egyptians were, and it sure does not make them West Africans.
Dude you're a laugh riot lol. Point me towards this evidence you speak of. lol.
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