Argentines opinions of Spain, Italy etc (best, life, cost, country)
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What do Argentines, and other Latin Americans of entirely European descent (Uruguayans, Chileans, southern Brazilians) think when they visit Spain, Italy etc?
The reason I ask is that back in the early 20th Century when many Spaniards and Italians migrated to South America, Spain and Italy were very poor countries and people were migrating to South America for a better life. Back then, Buenos Aires or São Paolo was an attractive an option as New York or Sydney, maybe even more so because of the similar language and culture.
But nowadays Spain and Italy – despite their current economic problems, and the now-booming economies in Argentina and Brazil – are much, much wealthier than South America. And it shows, particularly in the infrastructure. Spain particularly sparkles with modern expressways, extensive metro systems in its cities, and an amazing high speed rail network. I've not been to São Paolo or BA, but from exploring on Google Streetview and what people have told me, they definitely feel second-world.
So what do Argentines etc think when they visit their ancestors' land? Are they impressed at the progress made by their ancestors' countries, or are they even a little miffed that grandpa didn't just stay on in Andalusia or Ancona?
The same paradigm doesn't exist in the English-speaking world. While all English-speaking countries are rich, the "New World" settler societies are generally richer even than Britain and Ireland. Aussies/Canadians/Americans generally recognise they have it better than the average Briton.
I never had the opportunity to visit Spain or Italy.
So what do Argentines etc think when they visit their ancestors' land? Are they impressed at the progress made by their ancestors' countries
I don't think about my ancestors' countries, but rather about how a country like my Argentina, with everything to be a first world country like Australia or Canada, is what it is nowadays (second world).
I agree with marlaver completely, but I have to add that I had the opportunity to visit Spain once, and of course I was impressed at how orderly things were there. (I haven't been to Italy, but some people have told me that it looks less orderly and neat than Spain, I don't know).
And one thought that comes to mind is 'well, they aren't Anglo-Saxon, they aren't Germans, they are Latin, and they have an advanced society in many ways, so why can't we?
Anyway, let me tell you that people around the world tend to underestimate Latin America. I don't deny we are third-world, but some people we are like "nth world".
On almost any measure the US is a richer country than the UK and has been for over a hundred years. Both are extremely rich countries on a world scale, of course. I'm also not entering into a discussion of who has the best quality of life, welfare system etc. I'm talking pure dollars and cents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bejarano
As for Aussies, Kiwis and Canadians - there are enough of them here so something is pulling them back.
Australians and Canadians do not tend to live in the UK for financial or economic reasons. Most of them live in the UK for personal or lifestyle reasons, because of family ties and because the culture and societies are extremely similar. The numbers of Britons who migrate to these countries far outweighs the numbers of those coming back in.
My general point being that no Canadian, American or Aussie comes to Britain and goes - wow, look how modern and advanced it is. They admire it for other reasons, but not modernity or wealth. Most say the opposite, and laugh at the old, tiny houses, or the fact that people don't always own appliances like tumble dryers that are pretty standard in the new world.
I agree with marlaver completely, but I have to add that I had the opportunity to visit Spain once, and of course I was impressed at how orderly things were there. (I haven't been to Italy, but some people have told me that it looks less orderly and neat than Spain, I don't know).
In my opinion, it depends where in Italy you are. Parts of northern Italy (usually the smaller towns like Bolzano or Bergamo) are as smart or orderly as your wealthiest American/Canadian suburb or south German town and a cut above even Spain, or indeed the UK.
Other areas towards the south (particularly Naples) are much more "second world" feeling, with the smashed up pavements and crazy wiring, but still nothing like what I can see in Sao Paolo or Santiago de Chile on Streetview.
Course I realise that Latin America is very much on the up now but still they lag behind Spain, and Italy.
Who knows though, another ten years of the current chaos in the Mediterrainian we could once again see Chile/Brazil/Argentina edging ahead. What do people think?
On almost any measure the US is a richer country than the UK and has been for over a hundred years. Both are extremely rich countries on a world scale, of course. I'm also not entering into a discussion of who has the best quality of life, welfare system etc. I'm talking pure dollars and cents.
Australians and Canadians do not tend to live in the UK for financial or economic reasons. Most of them live in the UK for personal or lifestyle reasons, because of family ties and because the culture and societies are extremely similar. The numbers of Britons who migrate to these countries far outweighs the numbers of those coming back in.
My general point being that no Canadian, American or Aussie comes to Britain and goes - wow, look how modern and advanced it is. They admire it for other reasons, but not modernity or wealth. Most say the opposite, and laugh at the old, tiny houses, or the fact that people don't always own appliances like tumble dryers that are pretty standard in the new world.
All the above is moot. You were talking about the 'average' Briton and the 'average' American and how much better Americans have it, were you not? So America has a higher GDP because they are the richest country in the world - it has more millionaires, more billionaires - more rich people - but the average American - which is most of them, still has to find money for very expensive health insurance, still has no access to maternity leave, still is lucky to get 2 weeks paid vacation a year, still have to pay a fortune to go onto higher education, there are places in America where there are is no running water, no electricity, ghettoes where there are little to no amineties that are 'no-go' areas and are very dangerous places to be in. So Americans on average do not have it 'better' than British people. Sure, there are some very nice parts of America and some people who have it good but the same can be said for anywhere in Europe - never mind Britain.
And your 'point' about Australians and Canadians moving to the UK is more generalisation crap which you no figures or background reading to back up. You have just pulled all those two paragraphs from out of your arse - how can you say that when you have nothing to back what you are saying up? And as for British people not having access to 'tumble dryers' Are you sure you are British - we all know (if you are British) that even the poorest people in this country have 50 inch screen TV's and internet access. You'll be telling us Canadians laugh at the British because they don't have toasters next.
I have to agree with britinparis. I'm an American, but I have lived in the UK previously (my father got transferred for work and we lived in both London and Edinburgh). We moved back to the USA a few years ago and I'm 20 years old currently.
I think if we're talking about the "average" American, and the "average" Briton, then britinparis is right in pointing out that the "average" American is indeed better off. As he/she rightly pointed out, Americans have a noticeably higher disposable income and a higher GDP (PPP) per capita. That's just a fact. The size of the country's GDP does not matter so much as its GDP per capita. As for healthcare, the US, it's not an issue for the "average" American. For lower-income Americans, sure, but not for the "average" person. Most people have insurance through their job. Plus, with the new healthcare plan taking full effect next year, the number of uninsured will drop dramatically and the only people not insured will be the people who are in the country illegally or who pay the government fine instead of buying the insurance (The new health care plan is an insurance mandate, like the Netherlands and Switzerland....although not exactly the same). On another note, while I'm a total supporter of universal health insurance, the NHS is far from perfect, and far from flaw. As for vacation time, it's true that the US doesn't have a law regulating mandatory vacation time like the UK, but I don't know anyone who is "lucky" to get two weeks. Everyone I know has 3-4 weeks as adults. While people my own age do have less (not denying that), they still get a good two weeks off. Is that crappy? Yeah. Do I wish we had a law like the UK? Yes. But that's not the be all end all of QOL. As for higher education, my parents paid more for me to go to uni in the UK for my first year than if I would have gone to the US. My tuition has roughly £10,000, plus about £7000 for accommodation, plus spending money, etc. plus the conversion to USD, and you're paying roughly the same amount. Now, I payed an international fee, but if I'm not mistaken they jacked up the price of English unis a few years ago and they're not cheap anymore either. Unless you're Scottish and getting a free education in Scotland, then many, many British students also have to pay high higher education fees. Plus, the overwhelming majority of people in the US absolutely do not pay the full price. Students get thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of scholarships and grants. Private schools give out thousands of dollars of grants to students and reduce the cost of their education, drastically. Schools such as the Ivy's, etc. give it to you for completely free or substantially reduced depending on your financial situation. Also, state schools are substantially cheaper and more affordable. Now, I'm not trying to paint a completely rosy picture of the US higher education system (although our unis are the best in the world), but it's not nearly as horrifying as you portray it to be. Plus, like I said, the UK isn't cheap either. Also, there is no place in the US with no running water nor electricity. Hell, even the MS Delta (the poorest region of the US by far) isn't that bad. It's not Somalia for heaven's sake. The US does have issues with income inequality, but the UK does as well. Your statements are very much hyperbole. As for the "no-go" areas, the same applies for the UK. There are areas in London, Birmingham, Dundee, Glasgow, etc. etc. that I wouldn't step foot in if you paid me. Again, more hyperbole and exaggeration.
Add on to all of that, better wages, a better (more diversified and accessible due to its vast size) economy, better weather (although, you can basically live in any climate type that you would want), bigger, newer, and just plain nicer houses, the diversity of the landscape and people, the multitude of global cities and amazing cuisine, the customer service (non-existent in the UK by North American standards), the 24 hour convenience and affordability factors, and I think the US comes out on top for the average person. The UK is just inefficient and very bureaucratic by North American standards and it seems that everything is made a long and tiring process. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not trying to slam the UK nor do I have ill sentiments towards it (some of my closest friends are British), but I disagree with you.
And while I've never lived in Oz or Canada, I have visited both, and I think the same generally applies. I think the general rule of thumb is that in the Anglosphere, the new world tends to have the better QOL for the "average" person. This is true in my experiences for sure. I think if you're in the lower income brackets of society, then you're probably better off in the UK than the USA due to the UK having a stronger safety net.
All of the other Americans I knew who where living in the UK had every intention of moving back home. Americans don't generally move to the UK for its QOL (quite the opposite I think). Americans tend to move their for jobs (and then go back), marriage, or for cultural reasons, etc. The UK also has an abnormally high emigration rate for such a a rich and developed country. Also, the USA is the #2 destination for emigrating Brits, after Oz. And that's with the ridiculous requirements for entry (it's nearly impossible for Brits to move to the US these days, unfortunately). There are quite a number of Brits here in LA and I know other British expat families living throughout the US who have no intention of ever permanently returning to the UK because they feel that their QOL is better here.
P.S. britinparis, I found the tumble dryer thing true as well. I was just blown away that many of the flats, houses,etc. didn't have tumble dryers. Like you said, in North America, they're just completely standard. EVERYONE has them, everyone. That and the two faucet sinks threw me for a loop initially lol. :P
P.P.S. Sincere apologizes for continuing to derail this thread, but I just had to say that. I won't do it anymore.
All the above is moot. You were talking about the 'average' Briton and the 'average' American and how much better Americans have it, were you not? So America has a higher GDP because they are the richest country in the world - it has more millionaires, more billionaires - more rich people - but the average American - which is most of them, still has to find money for very expensive health insurance, still has no access to maternity leave, still is lucky to get 2 weeks paid vacation a year, still have to pay a fortune to go onto higher education, there are places in America where there are is no running water, no electricity, ghettoes where there are little to no amineties that are 'no-go' areas and are very dangerous places to be in. So Americans on average do not have it 'better' than British people. Sure, there are some very nice parts of America and some people who have it good but the same can be said for anywhere in Europe - never mind Britain.
Bejarano, where are you from? Are you American, or indeed Canadian or Australian?
I am not talking about "quality of life" – I am talking about wealth and economic opportunity. I am sorry but I have yet to meet an American/Canadian/Aussie who doesn't agree that the aveage, working person in the UK has lower wages and a lower quality of life than they would in the new world anglosphere. If you take it back to my original point about Argentina and Spain/Italy – Argentines are today much poorer than their European cousins. I was interested in the dynamic that that creates. The same does NOT exist in the English-speaking world.
There are NO Americans who move to the UK as economic migrants. It just doesn't happen. Americans who come here are usually very wealthy people in expat careers, or married to a Brit, or here for lifestyle/cultural reasons. In contrast Spain and Italy until recently was full of Argentines/Brazilians etc waiting tables, cleaning etc.
Britain does have a better safety net for the poor, that is true, and I would rather be poor in Britain than poor in America. But you make lazy generalisations about the average middle-class American. Most have good health coverage. Most take far more than the statutory minimum of 1-2 off. They earn the highest wages on earth, have a relatively low tax base, and enjoy a relatively low cost of living. Meanwhile Britain is far from the social democratic paradise you believe it to be. There's plenty of poverty here too – go to the east end of Glasgow (lowest life expectancy in Europe – West AND East), the Welsh Valleys, or London high rise sink estates and you'll find decay and poverty as bad as any in the US. You just don't see it because the world is obsessed with the idea that everyone in Britain lives like Prince Harry or Downtown Abbey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bejarano
And your 'point' about Australians and Canadians moving to the UK is more generalisation crap which you no figures or background reading to back up. You have just pulled all those two paragraphs from out of your arse - how can you say that when you have nothing to back what you are saying up? And as for British people not having access to 'tumble dryers' Are you sure you are British - we all know (if you are British) that even the poorest people in this country have 50 inch screen TV's and internet access. You'll be telling us Canadians laugh at the British because they don't have toasters next.
OK, if you want some more figures, the same applies for Aus and Canada – if anything, they're even richer than the States.
GDP per capita
Australia: US$60,642
Canada: US$50,345
United States: US$48,442 .... and....
The UK: US$38,818.
I accept the tumble dryer comment is a little flippant – I'm not suggesting we Brits are starving whereas Americans are enjoying the lap of luxary. Of course, most people do now have flat screen tvs – in Britain and America. They're not that expensive! But it is a good illustration of the slight gap in prosperity between the UK and the US. As any American who has been to the UK or vice versa will tell you – such an appliance is not standard in a UK home, many people still use an airer. In the US they are totally standard.
There are loads of examples I could have chosen. Another one would be the fact that its a bit of a joke for Americans how bad our teeth are compared to theirs. And it's true. The NHS does not generally cover dental care so most families pay for the bare minimum. In America, basically everyone has pearly white gems because they all generally have good dental plans with their insurance.
Look, I'm not trying to claim that Britain isn't an extremely affluent place. It is. But it's clear to anyone that the new world English-speaking countries are all even richer. It's just a fact.
It is pretty evident from 50 years of talking to people from Latin America that while they are extremely aware of the land their ancestors came from they are, different from The US in that they are not obssed with thier origins. In a myriad of converstions with peoples from all over the Latin America I have heard very few refer to thenselves by the nationality of their immigrant forebearers. But in the North this is common place. Latin Americans, while a hyphenated form of ethnic definition exists, it is very seldom used in everyday language whereas in the US it is an everyday occurrence.
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