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Really at the end of the day there IS only one step in giving up alcohol. Stop Drinking. Simples.
Everything else which people might call "steps" are, in fact, just methods of supporting the user in doing that 1 step.
And what support will work for each person differs depending on that person. For some it will be social outlets like AA meet up groups or similar. For others it will be a 1 on 1 "sponsor" where they look out for each other. For others it will be a new hobby or life goal. For others it will require constant vigilance and support. For others there are medical solutions. And so on and so on.
What one or combination of these will work for each individual is something they have to discover for themselves. But at the end of the day, despite AA steps declaring you are "powerless" over alcohol (one of their most abhorrent "steps" in my feeling), the power and choice and result lie firmly and solely in the hands of the person who decides not to imbibe alcohol again.
If you have ten dollars, order Robert Anton Wilson's Quantum Psychology from an on-line bookstore. It will set you free as far as resolving your pressing conflict and maximizing the psychological potential of your agnosticism are concerned.
There is no reason that your agnosticism has to limit you from participating in the belief system of your twelve step program. In fact, you currently aren't using your agnostic orientation to its full potential. Agnosticism gives you permission to plug in different belief systems as necessary, and derive the psychological benefit, because you expressly hold no permanent belief in any of them unless you choose to. Agnosticism isn't the orientation of 'belief in the absence' (atheism), it is the philosophy of 'no-belief', and so you are free to believe when you wish for as long or short a time as you wish. Plug into the twelve step belief system and see what it does for your perspective insofar as your addiction is concerned. If it works, stick with it for the psychological benefit that you derive. If it does not, unplug at will and try something else. Agnosticism, in a real way, is like a psychological condom for any perspective or belief system. It allows you to transiently create or buy into useful models of reality without being permanently committed to any of them; unless you want to be because they are useful or make sense for you in some other way. Of course, I'm way over-simplifying the contents of the aforementioned superb book. My advice is absolutely no substitute.
Location: The High Desert of the American Southwest
214 posts, read 230,644 times
Reputation: 364
I too am a recovering alcoholic and have been sober for seven years. At first I also had a problem with the whole "God thing" and the "turning it over to God" thing when I began attending AA. (I am an agnostic and also a recovering Catholic. LOL.) One coping method I find extremely helpful was something my first sponsor told me: "If you don't believe, just let "God: stand for "Good Orderly Direction" in your sober lifestlye.
ALso rememeber that AA lets you pick a "God as you u8nderstand Him." It in no way has to be the God of the Bible.
Lastly: some people here have suggested alternative recovery programs like Rational Recovery. IMHO, those type of programs are not really sufficient for the true alcoholic; only the problem drinker. I think once we crosee that line to full-blown alcoholism, we need the fellowship and the life-changing paradigm AA offers. RR always left me cold and I find zero camaraderie there. Indeed, it seemed as if AA bashing was their main agenda.
Good luck in your sobriety.
That is nonsense. All these programs are helpful to any kind of drinker, and people who are now not drinking at all.
At the end of the day the only part of AA that anyone suggests is actually helpful is the fact it is a social outlet and mutual support group. Nothing about the "12 steps" has been shown to have any beneficial effect or useful element at all.
It is up to the OP to try AA and any and all of these other options and find the one that best supports HIM. Not you, or your ideas of what is helpful or not.
I am not sure what YOU think is useful or life changing in the "AA paradigm" but I see no reason to think AA has a monopoly on this, that other programs can not be every bit as helpful, or that AA in fact offers _anything at all_ except, as I said, a social and mutual support group and outlet.
Location: The High Desert of the American Southwest
214 posts, read 230,644 times
Reputation: 364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
That is nonsense. All these programs are helpful to any kind of drinker, and people who are now not drinking at all.
At the end of the day the only part of AA that anyone suggests is actually helpful is the fact it is a social outlet and mutual support group. Nothing about the "12 steps" has been shown to have any beneficial effect or useful element at all.
It is up to the OP to try AA and any and all of these other options and find the one that best supports HIM. Not you, or your ideas of what is helpful or not.
I am not sure what YOU think is useful or life changing in the "AA paradigm" but I see no reason to think AA has a monopoly on this, that other programs can not be every bit as helpful, or that AA in fact offers _anything at all_ except, as I said, a social and mutual support group and outlet.
I beg to differ. RR has failed so miserably with recovering alcoholics that it is known in our circles as "Rational Relapse." AA is by far and away the best social support network out there, as witnessed by the fact it is worldwide and 10,000 times larger than RR.
Your viewpoint would probably command more credibility had you actually ever attended an AA or RR meeting. If you indeed have, I stand corrected and apologize, but I feel from the bluntness of your statements that you have not.
I doubt it has "failed" at all. Have you actual studies into the efficacy of such a program at all or are you simply presenting personal opinion as fact now?
AA leaked its own figures one time about their effectiveness and came out with a result of 5%. Anyone who knows statistics will recognize the number 5%. It happens to also be the success rate of doing NOTHING AT ALL. Funny that AAs own figures should come out with the same kind of result.
You also make a kind of Argumentum Ad Populum fallacy here. The number of meetings and members in no way suggests that it is effective. Just that it is commercially successful. X factor is massively popluar too. That does not mean it is a quality product.
IF you want to actually present any studies showing the efficacy and success rates of AA compared to RR then I am all agog to read them. Nor should be be limiting this conversation to just those 2 examples. There are many others too.
At the end of the day all these things offer one useful thing. They are a social outlet and mutual support group. What works for one person may not work for another and pre-rejecting one of them before the OP even gets to try it is really crass. The OP should attend examples of each and find for himself which one is the most effective for him.
Location: The High Desert of the American Southwest
214 posts, read 230,644 times
Reputation: 364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo
Really at the end of the day there IS only one step in giving up alcohol. Stop Drinking. Simples.
Everything else which people might call "steps" are, in fact, just methods of supporting the user in doing that 1 step.
And what support will work for each person differs depending on that person. For some it will be social outlets like AA meet up groups or similar. For others it will be a 1 on 1 "sponsor" where they look out for each other. For others it will be a new hobby or life goal. For others it will require constant vigilance and support. For others there are medical solutions. And so on and so on.
What one or combination of these will work for each individual is something they have to discover for themselves. But at the end of the day, despite AA steps declaring you are "powerless" over alcohol (one of their most abhorrent "steps" in my feeling), the power and choice and result lie firmly and solely in the hands of the person who decides not to imbibe alcohol again.
Thank you: your last paragraph sealed it for me!
By that I mean: I figured from the outset you were not in recovery and had zero experience working with alcoholics, but I wasn't sure.
But after reading that you think AA's First Step is abhorrent, well, that sealed it. I was correct from the get-go.
Because it's glaringly obvious to anyone who has ever attended AA or grappled first-hand with alcoholism, that what AA means is that we are "powerless after the first drink." Because That's when reason and good intentions and resolve and everything else take a subservient backseat to the physiological addiction, the disease, which we are inflicted with. This is not a psycho-somatic thing, but rather, chemical, as it afflicts the alcoholic at the cellular level, altering the cells' very shape and metabolic functions, causing them to greedily "soak-up" the ETOH in a far different manner than do the cells of a non-alcoholic, or a "normie" as we call them.
Newcomers in AA often balk at that first step too, complaining that the dread "P" word makes them feel weak. That is until they realize that in reality it is yet just one more of the numerous paradox's the 12-Step Program is replete with. That through admitting powerlessness, we actually gain strength.
Just like, through admitting defeat; we have Victory.
You are, however correct in saying that no one program is the best for everyone and we all need to find our own way. But as a recovering alcoholic who has worked both professionally and voluntarily--thru AA--in the addictions field, I felt obligated to point out to potential readers-in-recovery the true meaning of the First Step which you blatantly misrepresented in a public forum.
So you have dodged and ignored my last post on the thread, by simply skipping back to replying to an EARLIER post in the thread? Nice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hombre_Corriendo
By that I mean: I figured from the outset you were not in recovery and had zero experience working with alcoholics, but I wasn't sure.
You do not know a thing about me, my training, or my experience. So you can pocket your little ad hominem fueled assumptions and get over yourself thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hombre_Corriendo
But after reading that you think AA's First Step is abhorrent, well, that sealed it. I was correct from the get-go.
No you were, and remain, entirely incorrect. I do think it abhorrent to tell alcoholics that they are powerless over alcohol. It simply is not true that they are. Short of us tying them literally to a chair to force them never to drink again... the fact is that the ONLY person with power over alcohol is that person themselves.
Everything else we erect around this is a support structure for assisting them in winning that fight, and making that choice, and resisting that temptation. But at the end of the day, like it or not, the power to actually make that choice lies with them.
You attempted to denigrate the good work done by one association who strive to help alcoholics. You did this with no citation, no references, no studies. Just your own assertion. You have simply dodged and ignored any attempt to get you to substantiate your seemingly baseless and nonsense opinion on this.
You have dodged similarly any attempt to get you to substantiate any claims as to the efficacy of the AA program and 12 steps, above and beyond its role as a social outlet and mutual support group. You have not even attempted to adumbrate the benefits of anything to do with AA in and of itself beyond this one useful element that I have identified.
So you appear to fit into the usual paradigm on internet forums, that the person who shouts things like "You have zero knowledge/experience" is actually the one who best fits that description. That old human penchant for projecting ones own failings onto others who do not have them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hombre_Corriendo
Because it's glaringly obvious to anyone who has ever attended AA or grappled first-hand with alcoholism, that what AA means is that we are "powerless after the first drink."
This dilution and back pedalling of it adds nothing either. Because it is also not true. Many people do move from alcoholism to moderation. They never give it up entirely. They instead learn the control and will power they did not have before.
For some people the correct course of action is abstinence. For some people it is moderation. There is no one size fits all solution for something like this. And your dilution of the "powerless over alcohol" canard attempts to suggest there IS a one size fits all solution and you preclude from the outset one of the solutions that can, and has, worked for many. That is unhelpful at best, and damaging at worst.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hombre_Corriendo
You are, however correct in saying that no one program is the best for everyone and we all need to find our own way.
I know I am correct there, I did not need you to tell me. But this is why I find it poor form for you to denigrate the work of one association and recommend another over it. If AA does not work for the OP then he very much should try RR and many others. You going around pre-judging it on the OPs behalf and telling him it will not work or it is not effective is malicious and damaging behavior and I am personally not going to be dissuaded from calling you out on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hombre_Corriendo
I felt obligated to point out to potential readers-in-recovery the true meaning of the First Step which you blatantly misrepresented in a public forum.
Yet I did no such thing. But as I said, by all means pick out the steps in your precious little 12 and show me the citations and studies that suggests their efficacy above and beyond AAs likely true benefit of simply being a social support outlet and mutual support group, like any other.
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