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It seems most here agree we should not hide or stay silent but there's been indications that most of us also don't want to make big waves personally or socially.
There's a community Christmas dinner I will be attending. Whether or not that is appropriate under the circumstances is a different discussion. I will be going.
I've been trying to decide whether or not to abstain from a tradition at this affair of adding an angel to a commemorative tree for any who have died during the year . There is, of course, a pretty little prayer about angels and heaven to go along with the ceremony.
It's going to be expected that I hang an angel for my husband and will definitely be noticed and cause an amount of disapproval and gossip if I don't.
The lady in charge of this will more likely than not have one ready for me even if I don't request it ahead of time since we know each other .
Part of me says "Ah, what the hell, what's it really matter. Just do it."
But, ya' know? The whole rest of me says it's time to stop taking such a passive stance over things like this.
Where are we on this? I'm not asking what you think I should do but more honestly, what would you do?
I retract that. I'd like to hear both if they conflict.
It is entirely up to you if you want to make a public statement about your unbelief in god, or to what length you wish to go to avoid doing so. I don't see rightness or wrongness in it, in absolute terms. Just picking battles. In practical terms, the event is clearly structured for theist sensibilities and so attending it but refusing to participate is just going to offend people to little good purpose, in that no one is likely to change their mind about whatever ill-formed concepts of spirit beings and the afterlife they might either possess or tolerate. To my mind, if you must go for some reason, you must at least minimally participate, or you'll just make a douche of yourself and gain nothing in return. Attendance at and participation in any public event implies adherence to public rules of conduct and general sensibilities. It's a question of being "right" or being "happy" -- for low enough values of either.
There's much to be said on both sides. I know, during the BA cross -jewellery kerfuffle, the public view was that it was a small matter and the atheists were just looking silly and intolerant about nothing. So, tactically, though the stand has to be made somewhere, maybe it isn't there. I know I have done a few religious things simply not to rock the boat and make waves.
As much as making a case for atheism, we have to look good too, as just speaking out against religion is going to be represented as incredible intolerance and arrogance on the atheist part.
It seems most here agree we should not hide or stay silent but there's been indications that most of us also don't want to make big waves personally or socially.
There's a community Christmas dinner I will be attending. Whether or not that is appropriate under the circumstances is a different discussion. I will be going.
I've been trying to decide whether or not to abstain from a tradition at this affair of adding an angel to a commemorative tree for any who have died during the year . There is, of course, a pretty little prayer about angels and heaven to go along with the ceremony.
It's going to be expected that I hang an angel for my husband and will definitely be noticed and cause an amount of disapproval and gossip if I don't.
The lady in charge of this will more likely than not have one ready for me even if I don't request it ahead of time since we know each other .
Part of me says "Ah, what the hell, what's it really matter. Just do it."
But, ya' know? The whole rest of me says it's time to stop taking such a passive stance over things like this.
Where are we on this? I'm not asking what you think I should do but more honestly, what would you do?
I retract that. I'd like to hear both if they conflict.
I run across a similar dilemma at meals with some of the very religious people around here - they always want to hold hands and say a blessing before the meal.
To do so with them strikes me as lying, or at least fibbing - pretending to be something I'm not.
But to refuse and make an issue of it is rather rude.
Usually I go ahead and do it - figuring that the rudeness would lessen other people's enjoyment of the event, which I have no desire to do.
As a cultural activity, religion doesn't bother me in the least, so long as I am free to do as I please with my Sundays. I only argue the point when religion starts to work its way into education and science education specifically. Stuff like crosses on government property don't bother me either, I tend to think that those who draw the line there are doing their cause a disservice.
I don't really feel a need to "make a case for atheism". I'm not a believer and never have been. But I'm not really militant about it. If other people want to indulge their - in my opinion silly - beliefs then go knock yourselves out. So long as they are not impinging on my freedom it really doesn't bother me. And if indulging them around Christmas makes them feel good then why not?
the "angel" in this case for me would just serve as a touchstone for people who have passed and to mark their significance. an angel is a nice thought, I wouldn't have a problem with it. if it bothers you too much, tell your host you would prefer to put a flower or other "marker" on the tree in the angel's place as it has special or a more personal meaning to your loved one.
it's up to you. But of course I hang out with normal people and have a normal family. They don't care that I don't believe so it would not be noticed at all. We would then talk about the dead and how we remember them. So it is easy for me to sit around giving you advice without totally understanding the "big deal" for you.
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold
It seems most here agree we should not hide or stay silent but there's been indications that most of us also don't want to make big waves personally or socially.
There's a community Christmas dinner I will be attending. Whether or not that is appropriate under the circumstances is a different discussion. I will be going.
I've been trying to decide whether or not to abstain from a tradition at this affair of adding an angel to a commemorative tree for any who have died during the year . There is, of course, a pretty little prayer about angels and heaven to go along with the ceremony.
It's going to be expected that I hang an angel for my husband and will definitely be noticed and cause an amount of disapproval and gossip if I don't.
The lady in charge of this will more likely than not have one ready for me even if I don't request it ahead of time since we know each other .
Part of me says "Ah, what the hell, what's it really matter. Just do it."
But, ya' know? The whole rest of me says it's time to stop taking such a passive stance over things like this.
Where are we on this? I'm not asking what you think I should do but more honestly, what would you do?
I retract that. I'd like to hear both if they conflict.
Believe it or not I actually find the angel hanging ceremony rather nice. I mean unless the tradition was purpose made to get one over on non-believers....it's (I think) an acknowledgement of the people(and their lives) that are no longer with us. Basically a time of reflection. But here's a question for you as you decide whether to partake in the ceremony or not. If you did decided to hang an angel...what would that action represent/mean to you? And I mean you alone....FAQ everybody else....they're gonna talk $H!♡ anyways. So forget them. What would it mean to you?
Last edited by baystater; 12-04-2014 at 09:49 AM..
There's about a 60% chance I'd hang the angel. I've always found ceremonies that marked dramatic life changes to be comforting though. They bring people together to acknowledge the life change.
The reason I would probably participate in the angel-hanging ritual would be because it would be most likely comforting to me. Not wanting to rock the boat would have nothing to do with it.
I see some theistic ceremonies, such as the celebration of Christmas, as something cultural Christian atheists can get as much out of as theists. Therefore, for the atheists who get something out of these ceremonies, there is very little reason to change these ceremonies. You might put up a star rather than an angel...but I would see no benefit to a star over an angel. Both the star and the angel would seem to serve the purpose of acknowledging the life change, and making it a communal loss rather than strictly your own.
I see potential value to replacing theistic ceremonies with more secular ceremonies, in that it would alert more people to the fact that, yes, nonbelievers do exist. However, trying to uproot existing culture and replace it with something new is something I will assume is too much work for what little it would seem to accomplish, until someone can convince me otherwise. I tend to assume the majority, and tradition, is correct until otherwise is shown to be true. That's more due to laziness than anything else. I could very well be wrong and perhaps uprooting theistic culture would speed up the end of theism by five centuries.
However, most of the planets are named after Roman gods, and the religion of the Romans isn't real popular anymore. 4 of 7 of the days of the week are named after Norse gods, and that religion isn't real popular either.
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