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On the contrary, I'm not running from anything. I've stated my claims of morality on this board previously
If morality is objective and absolute, God must exist.
Morality is objective and absolute.
Therefore, God must exist
Great, now all you need to do to prove the syllogism true is demonstrate that points 1 and 2 are true.
Oh, wait, that is what I was asking you about before you tried to change the subject...
As I posted before, point 1 is at the very least arguable ( if morality is rooted in evolutionary biology, then it can be objective and at least virtually absolute without a deity), and point 2 is entirely unevidenced!
If you want to actually discuss the merits of your assertion on morality, let's do that. I'm game.
If one the other hand you are just here to pitch your faith with one liners, assertions and preaching, then please be on your way, and don't clutter up our forum with drivel. Most of us are intimately familiar with what you have to say, and are not convinced.
I was raised by very kind and loving, but misguided in some ways, fundamentalist Christian parents. I love them dearly, and know that they did the best they could for us. In my early 20's, I began to have serious doubts about some of the precepts like the concept of hell, Satan, black and white concepts of sin, saved versus unsaved people, demons, and the black and white concept of going through Jesus for salvation. It took me a few years to untangle the psychic knot of confusion in my head of having been raised with these man made religious beliefs, and release the intense fears that I was sinning and would be punished by rejecting these beliefs. It was like being in an emotionally abusive relationship with God for awhile. I would leave and then go back on my hands and knees in fear. Also, my family would often express their fears for me and constantly look for evidence that I was being punished by God! It was not fun!! In time, I established a profound, amazing, and miraculous connection with God/Source Energy/Infinite Intelligence...whatever label one chooses....that has proven over 12 years now to be a force of pure UNCONDITIONAL love that supersedes all human attempts to define and put it in a box with man made organized religion. I have become a more a whole, healed, balanced, joyful, peaceful, and secure person by allowing the healing love of that force that creates and sustains all of life itself to work its wonders in me. I have realized that I am an extension of that cosmic force that is difficult to even label, and eternally connected to it through my soul. At first, though, I was terrified of this very real connection (ie experiencing profound healing etc) because it was outside of the parameters of what I had grown up believing. As silly as it sounds now, I actually feared I was somehow being deceived by a malevolent force! That is how much of a head job these man made religions that falsely teach that we can separate ourselves from God can do to it's followers!
On the contrary, I'm not running from anything. I've stated my claims of morality on this board previously
If morality is objective and absolute, God must exist.
Morality is objective and absolute.
Therefore, God must exist
And they are still the same. I must admit, I came here out of curiosity, and because I do need to know both sides to formulate a valid theory and have valid faith. Of course I was scared. But after hearing both sides, there is still an emptyness to atheism that has not shaken my faith in God. It's also not my job to convert, or try to convert, it's my job to spread the word and let YOU choose your free will (Mr. Tos'ers in this great country. But I stand behind my claim that humans are incapable of being moral on an absolute scale. Hitler thought he was good. We all know he wasn't. The only thing that can properly define good and evil is an outside and unchanging source, which by definnition can not be earthly.
There is also plenty of evidence the Bible is accurate when you speak to highly educated Theologans on the subject, people who dedicate their lives to the matter. Thankfully I have a pastor who does, and I admit there are many corrput churches but mine certainly isn't. It makes it a point not to be.
Did you even READ the title of this thread? It is about the difficult journey many of us have had coming out of the BRAINWASHING of religion. The last thing people going through that struggle need is this preaching.
A moderator has already warned you that prosyletizing is NOT permitted in the atheist/agnostic subforum, and you continue pushing your religious beliefs.
I'm disappointed in every person who has even replied to his inappropriate posts, and I am disappointed that what was a very meaningful and relevant topic for me has been totally derailed.
Come on people---stay on topic, and take the preaching somewhere else.
OP, try to go easy on yourself when those fears come up. They will for a while longer, but should over time subside. You are releasing a lot of terror that has accrued since you were a child from being forced into such an oppressive reality. You likely will notice that the emotions of guilt, shame, and fear arise in you from time to time. Let them come to the surface and just acknowledge them. By doing this and riding out the emotional discomfort, you will eventually clear yourself of these negative feelings. You have been psychologically and spiritually abused and the fear, shame, and guilt from those teachings reside in your being. Just remind yourself how incredibly sick and psychopathic is the notion of human beings being cast down into an eternal hell of torture by a "loving Father God."Only toothless camel riding humans who believed the Earth was flat could concoct that dreadful mythology. How silly a notion for an entire planet to exist in its magnificence and astounding complexity just for most of its inhabitants to wind up in a burning fiery prison!
Push forward in the face of your fears and embrace atheism if that is where you feel led on your path. I think I read on the thread that is where you are now? Maybe you would feel comfortable throwing out a general "Universe, help me sort this stuff out." Maybe not and that's fine. You may gain something very valuable for YOU and YOUR experience by embracing atheism as you journey BRAVELY forward on your own path. It takes major courage and integrity to acknowledge what is TRUE for YOU. I would just give you encouragement to keep putting one foot in front of the other and pushing through those fears that come up every time no matter what path you choose. You will be just fine. ��
Here is a great link to an article about a therapist who specializes in religious trauma recovery. Some good info that may help!
Honestly, I think it would have taken much longer and maybe wouldn't have happened at all. My wife and I both deconverted about the same time, but our triggers were different. She had been treated very badly by churches and religious organizations while doing some missionary work, although she was still a believer for many years after that. She started acting in NYC, and started comparing the fruits of the church and this eclectic bunch of actors and dancers, pagans, homosexuals, and irreligious folks, and realized that Christianity was coming up short as far as producing loving gracious individuals.
For me it was a combination of trying to deal with her slide away from the faith, my own burnout, and lack of a response form a God who supposedly cared.
I am afraid that if we had done what I wanted to do, stay in small town MS, buy a house, lock myself into the one job in my field in the entire state, we never would have made it out... It would have been even harder to leave if I had stayed in North AL with my super religious family and friends. I was raised in a near total religious bubble, and my sisters, all of whom are over 30, are still in it to this day.
For me getting out was essential, and when we moved to TN for a couple years, it was really jarring.
-NoCapo
That's an excellent way to put it. In a total bubble. That encourages me because it sounds like if more of us in this country had our bubble popped we've have a greater chance of embracing real life with all its plusses and minuses. Thanks for letting us know what it was like for you.
That's an excellent way to put it. In a total bubble. That encourages me because it sounds like if more of us in this country had our bubble popped we've have a greater chance of embracing real life with all its plusses and minuses. Thanks for letting us know what it was like for you.
Well, I am not so optimistic. Of my entire extended family, I am one of 2 that has "gotten out". I think maybe 1 or 2 of my friends from highschool (homeschool group) has gotten out, but I couldn't swear to it. No one that I knew from my various churches has left. Most of the people I knew for the first 20 something years of my life are still devout, most of them homeschooling their own children to perpetuate the bubble.
A big part of how I got out is my wife and I moved literally across the country as soon as we got back from our honeymoon, so we had to forge a new life for ourselves without friends and family around. And it still took years for us to get out from under the baggage we brought with us. I am not sure that I would ever have gotten free, if I had not physically removed myself from everything and everyone I knew...
Whe you are enmeshed is a system, when all your family, almost everyone you know is part of it, it is amazingly hard to buck that. Honestly that is what religions are counting on...
Well, I am not so optimistic. Of my entire extended family, I am one of 2 that has "gotten out". I think maybe 1 or 2 of my friends from highschool (homeschool group) has gotten out, but I couldn't swear to it. No one that I knew from my various churches has left. Most of the people I knew for the first 20 something years of my life are still devout, most of them homeschooling their own children to perpetuate the bubble.
A big part of how I got out is my wife and I moved literally across the country as soon as we got back from our honeymoon, so we had to forge a new life for ourselves without friends and family around. And it still took years for us to get out from under the baggage we brought with us. I am not sure that I would ever have gotten free, if I had not physically removed myself from everything and everyone I knew...
Whe you are enmeshed is a system, when all your family, almost everyone you know is part of it, it is amazingly hard to buck that. Honestly that is what religions are counting on...
-NoCapo
I would wholeheartedly agree with you NoCapo. Most do not get out. I'm a tiny bit ashamed to admit this, but I have kind of cyber-stalked random people from my fundie past, and see that they are still there. Also, I can easily observe those in my family. My brothers have shied away from anything radical, but they still go to mainstream churches every Sunday that teach about hell and Satan. Christians mostly never leave. For me, it was an extremely difficult, confusing, and painful process to face those doubts head on, voice them aloud to those close to me, and forge on despite my family's disapproval to carve out a new reality without those beliefs. It's been my observation as well NoCapo, that most do not take things that far, and enter the abyss of having to reconstruct a new paradigm of reality!
I AM optimistic in the sense that I do think humanity will continue to evolve as we observe violent, extremist religious groups that starkly contrasts the more civilized and evolved (yes e-v-o-l-v-e-d) world. I hope human beings continue to wake up to the divisive nature of organized religions polluted with human, ignorant ideas of salvation as we continue to see horrors perpetuated by these fanatics against fellow humans. It is shocking how many buy into the man made mythology they were raised in, and never leave. It is astounding to me that my highly educated brothers, like thoughtless sheep, continue to attend churches with their children that teach about hell and Satan.
For me, it was an extremely difficult, confusing, and painful process to face those doubts head on, voice them aloud to those close to me, and forge on despite my family's disapproval to carve out a new reality without those beliefs. It's been my observation as well NoCapo, that most do not take things that far, and enter the abyss of having to reconstruct a new paradigm of reality!
Now that does not sound very "Christian like" of your family to judge you for carving out your personal reality. Just one of the many issues with Christianity...it's ALL EXCLUSIVE and very judgmental if you don't want to play the ALL EXCLUSIVE game!
It has also been my observation that most do not think at all with respect to lifetime conditions/programming. I was aware of this a a very young age, and this lead me to realize as I progressed along my life's journey, that I never possessed this very common trait found in most humans. It will set you apart from most humans when embarking upon a personal journey of spiritual and emotional intelligence. Most people go through the motions of life without questioning much and just believe this is how it is supposed be.
Not this lady, I question everything. It is good for the mind and soul to question everything...to be a free thinker and not allow any person or institution to condition/program you. It's a lifetime work in process to be free and it will certainly stand you apart from the masses.
Now that does not sound very "Christian like" of your family to judge you for carving out your personal reality. Just one of the many issues with Christianity...it's ALL EXCLUSIVE and very judgmental if you don't want to play the ALL EXCLUSIVE game!
Except for the unconditional love and support of my dad, they still keep me at an arm's length distance and regard me suspiciously watching for my downfall. There is ZERO value or credence placed on an individual's personal reality because that personal reality is ALWAYS deemed flawed as it is based on a sinner's interpretation of life rather than (psycho) God's all knowing commands.
This is what is SO terribly toxic about Christianity. It causes people to turn against their very selves, and not trust their own perceptions, reality, or instincts, and causes them to deeply mistrust others and life as well.
It is psychological abuse of the highest order.
This is what is SO terribly toxic about Christianity. It causes people to turn against their very selves, and not trust their own perceptions, reality, or instincts, and causes them to deeply mistrust others and life as well.
It is psychological abuse of the highest order.
Agree that conservative/fundamentalist/orthodox Christianity is psychological abuse. It causes paranoia, self hatred, guilt, fear, anxiety, depression, and more.
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in this great country. But I stand behind my claim that humans are incapable of being moral on an absolute scale. Hitler thought he was good. We all know he wasn't. The only thing that can properly define good and evil is an outside and unchanging source, which by definnition can not be earthly. 
