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Recently I was at a training seminar when during the break a Muslim guy and a Christian guy were debating theology. It was actually rather interesting, so I listened for a while and then eventually decided to join in. As an atheist, I tried to be respectful of their views, but also express why I was in fact an atheist.
The Christian guy was a bit more forceful in responding (so I needed to ignore a comment or two to keep the peace), but the Muslim guy said something that I disagreed with and I struggled to get him to understand my point of view. He kept saying that atheism was a religion - I tried to correct him and say that it was not. The only tenet that all atheists share is that there is no God. That's it and nothing else.
But he kept saying that it was a religion because we "believed" that there was no God. I tried to explain to both them of them that it wasn't a belief. There simply isn't enough evidence for the existence of God, so he doesn't exist.
What do you guys think? Is my Muslim friend right? Is atheism a religion?
Definitions are necessary to answer that question.
Atheism: A belief that no god or gods exist.
Religion: (definitions from Dictionary.com)
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
and there are several lesser definitions.
Atheism has no "set" of beliefs, it has no devotional practices or rituals, has no moral code, and has no divisions (sects) based on variations in interpretations of aspects of the basic Atheist belief(s).
It also has no holy book and has no priesthood or hierarchy of leadership. It also has no practices that take place to define any meeting or service as "Atheistic."
Every religion has some (or most) of those things.
Definitions are necessary to answer that question.
Atheism: A belief that no god or gods exist.
As has been said time and time again, and I believe even you have said this, every atheist I personally know and a good amount on here do not hold to this definition. This definition would be just as bad as "A belief that god exists". We hold a lack of belief or a disbelief in the existence of god. And yes, there's a big difference between lacking belief and a belief in the lack of.
As has been said time and time again, and I believe even you have said this, every atheist I personally know and a good amount on here do not hold to this definition. This definition would be just as bad as "A belief that god exists". We hold a lack of belief or a disbelief in the existence of god. And yes, there's a big difference between lacking belief and a belief in the lack of.
No, I haven't said that, because I see no practical difference between those two statements.
Again, from dictionary.com:
Atheism:
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
from their British dictionary:
rejection of belief in God or gods
--------------------
Note for the lurkers: There is nothing that defines a person as being an Atheist that has anything to do with the origin of life, the Theory of Evolution, any of the Science disciplines, or any particular morals or ethics, nor any particular political persuasion.
There is not much hope in talking to a closed mind, and the Old Jibe of theism that atheism is a religion has evidently picked up up by the Muslims, just as the climbed on the creationism bandwagon.
Of course it makes no logical sense to say atheism is a religion,as to do so you have to make the terms so broad as to make everything that a few people get together to do a religion.
But the rejoinder I think might be most effective is to say that, even if atheism was a religion (which logically it isn't) it would still be more likely to be true than any of the others, or at least more based on logic and sound evidence and not on Faith.
Oh yes, arguing that atheism/materialism/science is faith -based is also as wrong, polemical -rhetoric and two edged, as of course if it is and faith is better than mere human opinion, it is better that the religious faith as it also has sound logic and valid evidence to back the Faith up.
I used to think that this particular ploy was used abusively (and maybe it is now) but now I think it was a type of "believe or not" argument which is effectively saying that nobody knows for sure and so theist faith is as good as atheist science.
Recently I was at a training seminar when during the break a Muslim guy and a Christian guy were debating theology. It was actually rather interesting, so I listened for a while and then eventually decided to join in. As an atheist, I tried to be respectful of their views, but also express why I was in fact an atheist.
The Christian guy was a bit more forceful in responding (so I needed to ignore a comment or two to keep the peace), but the Muslim guy said something that I disagreed with and I struggled to get him to understand my point of view. He kept saying that atheism was a religion - I tried to correct him and say that it was not. The only tenet that all atheists share is that there is no God. That's it and nothing else.
But he kept saying that it was a religion because we "believed" that there was no God. I tried to explain to both them of them that it wasn't a belief. There simply isn't enough evidence for the existence of God, so he doesn't exist.
What do you guys think? Is my Muslim friend right? Is atheism a religion?
When I started to read this, I wasn't sure, but by the time I finished, I realized that your Muslim friend was right, at least in your case. YOU said above, "There simply isn't enough evidence for the existence of God, so he doesn't exist." If you had no religion, you would have said, "so we just don't know."
I think that probably your Muslim friend is right altogether. Atheism is a religion. An agnostic, on the other hand, might claim not to have one.
The notion that atheism is a religion is a well-worn canard by which some believers seek to assure themselves and anyone who will listen that not embracing their baseless beliefs is as baseless as doing so. This is, of course, wrong. It also ignores the actual definition of atheism. But insisting that words mean something other than they actually do is no barrier to some people.
As has been noted many times, atheism is no more a religion than bald is a hair color. Illiteracy is not a form of literacy. Not collecting stamps is not a hobby. Rejecting the existence of Tattooine is not a field of astrophysics. And atheism is not a religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyl3r
As has been said time and time again, and I believe even you have said this, every atheist I personally know and a good amount on here do not hold to this definition.
I think it's cute that you believe that every atheist you know is both out to you as an atheist, and has explicitly detailed his/her atheism to you (though as far as the latter goes, maybe you're one of those pushy people who, upon learning about someone's lack of belief, demand that they detail it for you - I don't know).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyl3r
We hold a lack of belief or a disbelief in the existence of god. And yes, there's a big difference between lacking belief and a belief in the lack of.
First, not everyone holds either an affirmative belief or an affirmative disbelief in a particular thing, no matter how repeatedly you insist that they do. I don't know whether there is another civilization in the galaxy which has attained the technological level of humanity. I do not believe that one has, nor do I disbelieve it. I am surely skeptical, for some very specific reasons, but that does not amount to disbelief.
In the case of deities, I am considerably more skeptical, because while in the case of life we know that it exists so it is not nearly a stretch to assert that it may exist elsewhere, we have no substantial evidence at all that deities exist, period.
In my case, while I acknowledge my agnostic atheism as a technical matter, I generally reject the 'agnostic' part as unnecessary, in the same way that I don't bother being an aleprechaunist or an alastthursdayist.
However, all of that - while an interesting discussion in and of itself - is completely aside from the point that even an affirmative lack of belief is not a religion. It might arguably in some manifestations be a belief system, but a belief system is not necessarily a form of theism. Indeed, only a small subset of belief systems are such. Keynesian economics is not a religion. Utilitarianism is not a religion. Believing that sasquatches roam the Pacific Northwest is not a religion (nor is rejecting the notion that they do).
And atheism is not a religion.
No matter how much you want it to be, and how much you keep insisting in the fact of all logic that it is.
Atheism is a very narrow position about belief in deities. It is the lack of belief in ANY deity.
...
We don’t know that there are no gods. Atheism is a belief position, not a knowledge position.
Which is very different than what you just claimed here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy
Atheism: A belief that no god or gods exist.
Saying, I don't believe in a god implies there could be a god but no convincing evidence has been presented. Saying I believe there is no god is statement that implies much more than that. Believing there is no god requires the same burden of proof as believing there is a god.
This is the same stance that people such as Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, etc. take. They are VERY clear that they don't believe that there is no god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati
think it's cute that you believe that every atheist you know is both out to you as an atheist, and has explicitly detailed his/her atheism to you (though as far as the latter goes, maybe you're one of those pushy people who, upon learning about someone's lack of belief, demand that they detail it for you - I don't know).
I think it's cute that you can make so many random, baseless assertions in the course of one paragraph.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati
think it's cute that you believe that every atheist you know is both out to you as an atheist
I never said or implied this. I said every atheist I know personally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati
and has explicitly detailed his/her atheism to you
Yes, I am aware of the major beliefs of every person I have a personal relationship with. I don't find this strange in any way whatsoever, and I think it's absurd that you do. Asking about someone's beliefs implies in no way that you are trying to push something onto them or that you are trying to strike up a fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati
(though as far as the latter goes, maybe you're one of those pushy people who, upon learning about someone's lack of belief, demand that they detail it for you - I don't know).
I don't know where this came from or what it was directed to. But ... okay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati
First, not everyone holds either an affirmative belief or an affirmative disbelief in a particular thing, no matter how repeatedly you insist that they do. I don't know whether there is another civilization in the galaxy which has attained the technological level of humanity. I do not believe that one has, nor do I disbelieve it. I am surely skeptical, for some very specific reasons, but that does not amount to disbelief.
I have not insisted that everyone does hold this view. I insisted that a substantial amount of people here who call themselves atheists do hold it; as they have clarified in the past. I have also insisted that the atheists I know personally hold it. That's far from everyone.
Atheism literally means "without theism". Believing there is no god is a "sect" of atheism. So someone who believes there is no god is certainly an atheist but that belief set does NOT represent atheism as a whole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati
However, all of that - while an interesting discussion in and of itself - is completely aside from the point that even an affirmative lack of belief is not a religion. It might arguably in some manifestations be a belief system, but a belief system is not necessarily a form of theism.
Certainly. It's crazy to call a lack of a belief a religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati
And atheism is not a religion.
No matter how much you want it to be, and how much you keep insisting in the fact of all logic that it is.
What are you talking about. Can you quote where I called atheism a religion?
Btw, this is the same sort of needlessly aggressive treatment that I see atheists giving to theists so often. If I was a theist as you seem to think I am, what you just did here would convince me of nothing. It would make me dig my heels in and fight harder. This is not a useful method of communication.
Now, to clarify. mensaguy said atheism is a belief that there is no god. That is a position that requires faith and can be and often is construed by the religious as "religion". Typically from what I've seen, most atheists recognize that claiming no god exists requires faith, so they take the honest stance of a "disbelief or lack of belief in a god" (thus atheism).
When you know what atheism actually is, it's much harder to construe it as religion.
IMO, atheism is only relevant when discussing a claimed god. I don't believe there is evidence for a claimed god. No one can factually claim there is no God. Anti-theism could be construed as a religion.
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