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There is not much hope in talking to a closed mind, and the Old Jibe of theism that atheism is a religion has evidently picked up up by the Muslims, just as the climbed on the creationism bandwagon.
Of course it makes no logical sense to say atheism is a religion,as to do so you have to make the terms so broad as to make everything that a few people get together to do a religion.
But the rejoinder I think might be most effective is to say that, even if atheism was a religion (which logically it isn't) it would still be more likely to be true than any of the others, or at least more based on logic and sound evidence and not on Faith.
Oh yes, arguing that atheism/materialism/science is faith -based is also as wrong, polemical -rhetoric and two edged, as of course if it is and faith is better than mere human opinion, it is better that the religious faith as it also has sound logic and valid evidence to back the Faith up.
I used to think that this particular ploy was used abusively (and maybe it is now) but now I think it was a type of "believe or not" argument which is effectively saying that nobody knows for sure and so theist faith is as good as atheist science.
I missed this point earlier and I wanted to defend the guys I was talking to. I'll admit that the Christian guy came across as a rather close minded, but he certainly knew his subject matter - and he knew a lot about Islam as well. The Muslim guy was a bit more open minded, and acted like less of a know it all. He was even willing to concede some points to the Christian, but the Christian guy would not do so in return.
That was the point I was trying to get across to them. That's why I try to stay away from "Atheists don't BELIEVE in God," but instead say "Atheists see no proof that there is a God." I'd like to go further and say that those of us who considered ourselves atheists would "believe' in God if there was sufficient evidence of his existence.
Atheism is NOT the belief that God does not exist. Atheism is a lack of belief in God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Atheists aren't making a positive belief claim. They are declining to afford belief on insufficient evidentiary / substantive basis.
Precisely what I was trying to say.
I'm not sure why that seemed to cause consternation. I would think that, if anything, this moves atheism farther away from being considered a "religion" which seems to align with the agenda of militant atheists.
Recently I was at a training seminar when during the break a Muslim guy and a Christian guy were debating theology. It was actually rather interesting, so I listened for a while and then eventually decided to join in. As an atheist, I tried to be respectful of their views, but also express why I was in fact an atheist.
The Christian guy was a bit more forceful in responding (so I needed to ignore a comment or two to keep the peace), but the Muslim guy said something that I disagreed with and I struggled to get him to understand my point of view. He kept saying that atheism was a religion - I tried to correct him and say that it was not. The only tenet that all atheists share is that there is no God. That's it and nothing else.
But he kept saying that it was a religion because we "believed" that there was no God. I tried to explain to both them of them that it wasn't a belief. There simply isn't enough evidence for the existence of God, so he doesn't exist.
What do you guys think? Is my Muslim friend right? Is atheism a religion?
I would have pointed at the Christian friend and say "you don't believe in his god correct? Now is that the basis of YOUR religion or is your belief in Mohammed the basis of your religion?"
At that point most of the people I interact with "get" that lack of belief in a particular god is not a religion.
I think the Muslim's argument ignores the other aspects of religion, Yes, I believe that there is no such a thing as a god, but I have no commitment to that belief such as every real religion demands, I am not a member of any organization that gathers to share, profess, and reinforce each other's belief (never mind community, which is a huge part of religion, and a good one), I also do not "practice" my belief in any way. Finally and most importantly, I have no interest in proselytizing my belief to anyone else. No logic is going to convince a true believer.
Recently I was at a training seminar when during the break a Muslim guy and a Christian guy were debating theology. It was actually rather interesting, so I listened for a while and then eventually decided to join in. As an atheist, I tried to be respectful of their views, but also express why I was in fact an atheist.
The Christian guy was a bit more forceful in responding (so I needed to ignore a comment or two to keep the peace), but the Muslim guy said something that I disagreed with and I struggled to get him to understand my point of view. He kept saying that atheism was a religion - I tried to correct him and say that it was not. The only tenet that all atheists share is that there is no God. That's it and nothing else.
But he kept saying that it was a religion because we "believed" that there was no God. I tried to explain to both them of them that it wasn't a belief. There simply isn't enough evidence for the existence of God, so he doesn't exist.
What do you guys think? Is my Muslim friend right? Is atheism a religion?
You should have looked at them straight in the eye and said: If Atheism is a religion, then Theism on it's own is a religion. This means that Christians, Muslims, and Polytheists, share that same religion: i.e. Theism. Unless they want to say that they have the same "religion" as Hindus and Hellenes, then Atheism is NOT a religion.
What the Muslims probably meant is that most Atheists have common beliefs with each other as a group in general: such as skepticism, rationalism, free-thought, physicalism, etc. All such things that Religionists general don't hold dear (at least in regards to applying them to their religion itself).
And if Atheism was a religion: WHERE ARE THE PROPERTY TAX BREAKS AND INCOME AUDITING EXEMPTIONS? [That should shut the money-grubbing religionists right up].
I missed this point earlier and I wanted to defend the guys I was talking to. I'll admit that the Christian guy came across as a rather close minded, but he certainly knew his subject matter - and he knew a lot about Islam as well. The Muslim guy was a bit more open minded, and acted like less of a know it all. He was even willing to concede some points to the Christian, but the Christian guy would not do so in return.
It's ok to "defend" as you put it what someone is saying from the point of view of saying they were open -minded (wiling to listen) or as in the case of the Christian, "Knew his stuff". But the fact is that atheism is very much misunderstood, often by atheists themselves.
It is complicated when "There is not God" is something sated or implied by atheists. I've done it myself, even though I am aware it is not a claim to certainty. It is a claim to a firm conclusion based on all the evidence, which is all that factual knowledge is, anyway. Only theism claims a certainty based apparently on trust in one of a number of old books, all the others being rejected as false, but which is more probably based on "Faith" which is to say an unshakable belief in one's own rightness, confirmed by the innate conviction the divine information is being put into the head.
I don't even make much of a distinction between a possible creator -god and the specific god of the Bible (or Quran, or Judaism) as far as probability goes, though the evidence is different. The Universe does not, when one looks at the evidence, look designed. That is a good reason to suppose it was natural, however it happened.
The Abrahamic god, on the other hand is described in writings that just read like myths and are just not believable. Appeals to not being 100% certain or some sort of god could still exist, as 95% reliability is good enough for "'I'm sure, on the basis of the evidence to hand".
So I'm pretty convinced that the Abrahamic god does not exist, and that there was no intelligent designer. The arguments for a designed universe and the Other Side of the argument, feelings in the head, have far better materialistic explanations. "Does not exist" with the caveat "on the basis of the evidence, so far as we know, and always ready to look at any new evidence" is perfectly justified.
So, Atheism doesn't look like a religion on basis of faith -beliefs. Or rational skepticism is a religion, science is a religion and criminal detection and historical research is all religion. As our pal Raffs brilliantly put it in a recent post, all the other disciplines are fine as science, but only Evolution and Big bang cosmology are lies of the devil intended by atheists to lead people away from True Faith (whichever one you happen to like).
The methods of research and data evaluation are ok science and logical reasoning, until it comes to atheism, and (of course) Evilooshun science, and then they are Religious faiths. They are not.
The request to show priests and holy books and congregations was mentioned above. I have seen various "Duck -hunts" and List -tickings where the publishing of books is equated with Scripture, the speakers for atheism are equated with priests and U/U churches or just conferences are equated with church services as the trappings of faith.
In some respects U/U churches are just that - the trappings for those who need them, but (hopefully) without the Faith. I did read with horror a denunciation of atheism by an "agnostic" minister at a U/U church. I am no persecution -advocate or fan of religious censorship, but that guy should have been heaved into the street as "Unfit for purpose".
I won't go into the distressing amount of hostility towards atheism by some who dub themselves "Agnostic" (which translates as "Irreligious theist"). And I understand why they can be that way. Having rejected holy books and personal gods, they have nothing much left but Faith and rather hopeless appeals to First cause, I/D and feelings in the head. So the best option in view of lack of evidence is to attack atheism. Viciously.
But I said I wouldn't go into that.
In fact this really addresses it. Irreligious theists don't need to fear us. We may not believe but we can't be sure.100%. If they want to believe in the 5% possible god and reject the gods of the Bible or Quran we have no quarrel with them, though we must, if they insist on claiming this "God" of theirs as true, expect to hear the counter- arguments and shouldn't get hostile about it.
And if they really are irreligious theists, they they ought to be on our side, as they say, if not with us in rolling back the pernicious influence of religion, at least not against us by fighting what we are doing, which is not religion, but the removal of religious influence from social domination.
Welcome to reality. There are few easy answers. Maybe you've heard the expression "Atheism is a religion the way not collecting stamps is a hobby." I can imagine this type of discussion and wouldn't be surprised if you were far more respectful of their views than they were of yours. You can't really win with what people want to believe. You're discussing rationale and they're talking emotion. Doesn't work. It's like trying to reason with a toddler as to why he/she can't lie out in the street when they're two or three year old mind thinks it's perfectly okay. They can't conceive of reality, never mind respect it. It's like, what cars?? There are no cars to that toddler. There's no respecting reality to the religious mind. It just doesn't compute for many of them.
Atheism is NOT the belief that God does not exist. Atheism is a lack of belief in God. There is a difference. People do not believe that Santa Claus does not exist. They simply do not believe there is a Santa.
Much like there is fact and then there is opinion, and much like many a comment here reflects one or the other, even here it seems that separating simple fact from lots of confusion is no easy trick.
Regardless what the Christian or Muslim may have said or how they say it, anyone who knows what these labels truly mean well knows and understands that atheism is NOT a religion.
Already in this thread there are plenty enough explanations for why this is the truth, and plenty enough fine explanation to help anyone who is still confused about what is religion and what is atheism.
More important to me, anyway, is whether more of us should be religious or atheists, and why, but of course it is important to know the difference before moving much further.
I mean if you don't know the difference between a fact and a fable...
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