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There are people ranging from devout to mildly Christian who celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus, and also as a day of secular/family traditions, celebration, and fun.
Shrug. Not everyone likes this time of year. I don't and one reason is it brings out the worst in many people.
Can't relate to any "celebration." To me that is saying giving thanks to this god character for life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
There are very devout Christians who believe it is a sin to celebrate Christmas at all, as they know Dec 25 is not Jesus's birthday, or they do not believe in celebrating any holidays or birthdays.
I'm an ex-Catholic, went through all the rituals and this is the first I heard of this. Christmas was a very big deal in my physically and mentally abusive religious upbringing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
There are many people for whom Christmas is not a particularly religious celebration, but our nation's and their family's traditions have made Christmas a special holiday to them nevertheless.
Stated right in my OP:
"I have a very difficult time separating the religion part of Christmas." I don't have to participate and I won't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
Christmas can be whatever a person wants it to be, but it is definitely not primarily religious in this day in the US.
Strongly disagree, with the latter part anyway. December 24 and 25 are the highest church attendance days of the year. Many if not most celebrate the birth of the fictional Jesus birthday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
At minimum, it is a day off work for the majority of people, hence a convenient time to get together for a meal with extended family and friends, or to do whatever one wants. Most people would not be pleased if a movement were underway to declare Christmas no longer a national holiday.
I'd rather celebrate something real and meaningful, like a National Science Day." Now that is something I could celebrate, not what is coming on December 25. Hold it on October 28, the birthday of a real hero of mankind, Jonas Salk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
OP can certainly do, or not do, whatever he chooses regarding Christmas, but in this case, I personally would apply the wisdom in the adage "When in Rome, do as the Romans." I can't imagine being so put off by participating in a work gift exchange and party, when that action is bound to alienate you and label you as a Scrooge, one who feels superior, not a team player, a grumpy atheist, and any number of unfavorable descriptions.
In other words, be a sheep or dittohead. Or the brain of a non-thinker and not have a mind of my own.
Leave me out of that group.
Your insults toward me are worth ignoring as I want my thread to stay up. "Feels superior," such outrageous nonsense. I've been in the admin field a long time and I never participated in any gift exchange and never will. I blow it off, no more no less. I've always been one of the more popular employees whichever job I worked. I've worked in quite a few offices as for many years (not currently) I managed to make a living through government contracting. It's been 35 years since I took part in any gift giving this time of year. Zero chance that streak will be broken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
Lighten up. Enjoy a little party with your co-workers.
Did you miss the part where I said I take part in the office potlucks even if the the most part I do not enjoy them due to a lot of crappy food I refuse to eat? Re-read post #17.
FYI, I gave up a Saturday off day I had in September to help run a baseball clinic for underprivileged children that my company sponsored. I work for a large company and I was the only one in my group who showed up when half the crew I work with had the day off.
I'm not holding my breath for a retraction of some of your mean-spirited content.
Shrug. Not everyone likes this time of year. I don't and one reason is it brings out the worst in many people.
Can't relate to any "celebration." To me that is saying giving thanks to this god character for life.
I'm an ex-Catholic, went through all the rituals and this is the first I heard of this. Christmas was a very big deal in my physically and mentally abusive religious upbringing.
Stated right in my OP:
"I have a very difficult time separating the religion part of Christmas." I don't have to participate and I won't.
Strongly disagree, with the latter part anyway. December 24 and 25 are the highest church attendance days of the year. Many if not most celebrate the birth of the fictional Jesus birthday.
I'd rather celebrate something real and meaningful, like a National Science Day." Now that is something I could celebrate, not what is coming on December 25. Hold it on October 28, the birthday of a real hero of mankind, Jonas Salk.
In other words, be a sheep or dittohead. Or the brain of a non-thinker and not have a mind of my own.
Leave me out of that group.
Your insults toward me are worth ignoring as I want my thread to stay up. "Feels superior," such outrageous nonsense. I've been in the admin field a long time and I never participated in any gift exchange and never will. I blow it off, no more no less. I've always been one of the more popular employees whichever job I worked. I've worked in quite a few offices as for many years (not currently) I managed to make a living through government contracting. It's been 35 years since I took part in any gift giving this time of year. Zero chance that streak will be broken.
Did you miss the part where I said I take part in the office potlucks even if the the most part I do not enjoy them due to a lot of crappy food I refuse to eat? Re-read post #17.
FYI, I gave up a Saturday off day I had in September to help run a baseball clinic for underprivileged children that my company sponsored. I work for a large company and I was the only one in my group who showed up when half the crew I work with had the day off.
I'm not holding my breath for a retraction of some of your mean-spirited content.
Definitely don't hold your breath. You hate the holiday, but then you don't like that I said you seem like a Scrooge?
In your original post, you asked if you should "play along." That question came after your paragraph about the gift exchange, so clearly you are asking for opinions on that aspect of the work party. Now you say it's been 35 years since you've done any holiday gift giving, with zero chance of breaking that streak.
So why did you bother to ask us?
I answered under the assumption that you wanted opinions. I gave you mine. You didn't like that I said you might be perceived as feeling superior, but you said yourself you wear your refusal to participate as a "badge of honor." Sounds like you feel pretty darned superior about that.
To me it's quite a stretch to say that participating in a little gift exchange is the equivalent of being a dittohead or sheep. Sounds pretty melodramatic actually, and a trivial thing to fight against so firmly. But I already explained that.
You said you have a hard time separating the religious part of the holiday. I gave you some facts that could have helped you separate the religious aspect, but you chose to argue about what I stated (even though you said in your OP that you realize you're in the minority to feel that way).
As I said, you can do, or not do, whatever you choose. Your original post indicated that others in your office already expected that you wouldn't participate in the gift exchange. You said this bothers you, and that you don't like knowing they are gossiping about you. It seemed you were seeking opinions on whether it was worth digging your heels in regarding this, so I gave you my thoughts. You are free to choose in this matter, but you don't get to choose how others interpret your actions. You come across as a killjoy and curmudgeon, and based on your OP, it would seem your co-workers think so too.
But now that I see your mind is firmly made up about the gift exchange, I have no idea why you started this thread.
With the exception of one poster who apparently has trouble expressing herself without personal attacks and being a cyber bully, I appreciate the responses.
I thought it was obvious why I started this topic. As stated in the OP and right in the subject line I was curious if anyone else didn't participate in these things and to hear about any backlash an office employee received for not taking part. Maybe I should have put up a poll. Stating for the record I do not care if others take part although at the same time I wish the tradition would go away. If I was any "killjoy" I would be bragging that I think these things are silly and pointless and encourage others not to participate, laughing at them for doing so. I would never do such a thing. That would be a "killjoy," not silencing not taking part in any "Secret Santa" or the like. I take part in the potlucks and as pointed out I've done other events through the years as well.
The badge of honor thing is stated clearly, I'll take it if it's about standing up for one's principles and not following along like sheep which I just can't do. No more, no less.
"Christmas" is a Christian holiday, obviously stolen but in place. It's puzzling to me that atheists take part in this but whatever. I don't get it and never will...
"Christmas" is a Christian holiday, obviously stolen but in place. It's puzzling to me that atheists take part in this but whatever. I don't get it and never will...
I think you just don't want to. It's evolved into a secular holiday, and in practice is a mix of the secular and religious in many areas. It's not a black and white situation where it's all got to be pushed away lest you have cooties.
I'm a lot of things before I'm an atheist. For example, I'm an introvert, a skeptic, a technician and an intellectual. As an introvert, I don't have much use for some of the reflexive social traditions and as a skeptic I don't automatically assume the truth of society's narratives about them. In my ideal world there would be far less of what to me is mindless feelgood and I'd be left in peace with my own thoughts. At the same time I recognize that probably 75 % of society is neither introverted nor very skeptical nor very mindful, so I accept the burden of these social obligations and touchstones to a certain extent. I treat them as ways to stretch myself and empathize with others more. I am not invested in an identity as a curmudgeon even though, in ways, I am actually rather curmudgeonly and even, at times, irascible. There's always a tension between "I'm too old for this sh_t" and "how nice that people want to include me anyway".
So I'm both sympathetic and rather bemused by your position on this, which seems to me, a bit overdetermined. But as I've said before, and as others have said ... it's your needle to thread for yourself, not mine, and as long as you accept the social consequences for yourself (you do) and consider them worth it, (you seem to) and don't judge me for some level of participation (you don't) ... curmudgeon away and more power to you.
I'm still waiting to hear someone explain how Christmas is an inherently Christian holiday whereas St. Patrick's Day is not. Alternately, I'd love to hear how drinking crappy, dyed-green beer is a religious rite.
Christmas is like marriage. You can drape all manner of religious trappings over it. Get married in a church. Have readings from the Bible. Arrange for some religious figure to preside. On the other hand, one can get married by a judge in a courthouse (or another non-religious place) and have a ceremony that is entirely irreligious. So, too, with Christmas. Ten days from now, we'll have a delightful family gathering at my wife's parents' house. There will be no religion invoked. No manger scenes, no mentioning of Jesus. I'm pretty sure none of the extended family ever attend church. There will be food and cheer. Presents and a tree.
A tree! Goodness, we must all be pagans!
I get not liking Christmas. But this tortured rationalization that one is avoiding it because its Christian roots cannot be separated from the modern secular holiday is silly. From our dating system to the names of the days of the week, from St. Patrick's Day to Valentine's Day, from religious-based profanity when one hits one's thumb with a hammer to everyday idioms that are Biblical in origin ('cast the first stone', 'blind leading the blind', 'sign of the times', etc.), we all use a plethora of words and concepts that are religious in origin.
I think you just don't want to. It's evolved into a secular holiday, and in practice is a mix of the secular and religious in many areas. It's not a black and white situation where it's all got to be pushed away lest you have cooties.
I'm a lot of things before I'm an atheist. For example, I'm an introvert, a skeptic, a technician and an intellectual. As an introvert, I don't have much use for some of the reflexive social traditions and as a skeptic I don't automatically assume the truth of society's narratives about them. In my ideal world there would be far less of what to me is mindless feelgood and I'd be left in peace with my own thoughts. At the same time I recognize that probably 75 % of society is neither introverted nor very skeptical nor very mindful, so I accept the burden of these social obligations and touchstones to a certain extent. I treat them as ways to stretch myself and empathize with others more. I am not invested in an identity as a curmudgeon even though, in ways, I am actually rather curmudgeonly and even, at times, irascible. There's always a tension between "I'm too old for this sh_t" and "how nice that people want to include me anyway".
So I'm both sympathetic and rather bemused by your position on this, which seems to me, a bit overdetermined. But as I've said before, and as others have said ... it's your needle to thread for yourself, not mine, and as long as you accept the social consequences for yourself (you do) and consider them worth it, (you seem to) and don't judge me for some level of participation (you don't) ... curmudgeon away and more power to you.
Good post.
Okay, This is already out there, posted in the past. Maybe clarify / whatever.
My childhood was beyond horrible and it may have a little to do with my position. Yes a long time ago but never forgotten. I've never known Christmas to be anything but religious. 2 years ago when I told the story earlier on this thread of me walking out on the "holiday" gathering was anything but due to almost all Christian music with lyrics that offended me. I know you don't get it but I was insulted that such crap could be played at a work gathering that I thought was supposed to be secular.
I see parking lots at churches in my area doing a brisk business. Last time I went over a relatives house during this holiday about 7 years ago was all religious theme. I was uncomfortable being the only atheist there and would never even think of going back.
So putting all of the above together is the reason I shun the holiday due to the fact I have never known Christmas to be anything but religious.
To stay on topic the giving of gifts is the celebration of the fictitious JC birthday. Why else? I am very well read and have not heard otherwise. Why only around the fake Jesus birthday, the biggest holiday of the year for the gifts? I do not see anything secular about it. You and others want it to be secular for some reason but in reality it's not. We are never going to agree on this.
I briefly played around with the winter solstice and attended a couple of gatherings but it never meant much to me. Never took part in any gift giving. Others who enjoy it can, and it is way better than this event coming in 10 days.
I simply think the idea of giving gifts on this upcoming Christian holiday is dumb and I won't be forced into doing something just because many others do. I have a mind of my own and I'm not going to take part in something I don't agree with given this choice.
In a nutshell, there's the reason. Hope I further clarified as nothing I've seen or experienced lately makes me think this is some kind of secular holiday. Clearly it is not. I get it not in your house and I do hope you have a good time. I just don't see the point of all the fuss nor can I relate regarding December 25.
In a nutshell, there's the reason. Hope I further clarified as nothing I've seen or experienced lately makes me think this is some kind of secular holiday. Clearly it is not.
All I can say is that there's nothing religious about the commercialized gift-giving paroxysm other than what the religious superimpose on it. Why do you think the religious whine about "taking Christ out of Christmas"? They're loosing that battle -- have been for a couple of generations now, at the least.
What is happening is that secular customs are supplanting the original religious meaning. That seems clear enough -- even to the religious.
Can you get through an entire season and not experience some religious people doing religious oblations? No. Is that a big deal? Not for most. But again ... life is short, if it traumatizes you, then by all means opt out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John13
I get it not in your house and I do hope you have a good time. I just don't see the point of all the fuss nor can I relate regarding December 25.
If it helps, our entire nod to the season is:
1) Put a wreath on the front door
2) Send a Christmas card (secular) to my two surviving brothers and the CEO of my major client (a conservative Catholic who sort of expects these things, and after all she shovels a lot of $$ our way annually, the least we can do is humor her with a stupid card).
3) Get my wife a card (secular) to let her pretend to be surprised about on Christmas morning.
4) Done. No gifts, no parties (both my wife and I are 100% telecommutes and no physical client office within several hundred miles of us).
Christmas for us is a chance to do as little as possible because our big family holiday is Thanksgiving, because my wife's (adult) kids are with their biological Dad for Christmas every year, my son is dead, and my daughter and grandkids are 600 miles away and can't be bothered to come see us any day of the year much less this one. Black Friday is a non-event other than us avoiding any incidental shopping over that weekend. Christmas day is just another day except my email box remains empty and my phone doesn't ring. I love the week between Christmas and New Year's because my client's clients tend to take the whole week off and I can actually get work done.
I grant you ... I have it easy, relatively speaking, when it comes to avoiding the season entirely, much less the religious aspects.
Why do you think the religious whine about "taking Christ out of Christmas"? They're loosing that battle -- have been for a couple of generations now, at the least.
My religious, physically and mentally abusive father had a bumper sticker on his car "Keep The Christ In Christmas" about 50 years ago. I haven't heard anything on any recent campaign and have not heard that quote in probably a couple of decades.
Not going to happen and any fight to remove it is silly, especially since there are so many who identify as Christians (large majority of the United States population) who will use it anyway. Like it or not this is their holiday and it's here to stay. The "Keep Christ In Christmas" crowd are over the top, paranoid extremists. That is why I want nothing to do with any of this. I can't even bring myself to say "Merry Christmas" because I would be dishonest to myself if I did so. I do not want anyone thinking I am one of them (Christian). As a side note I can't imagine people of other faiths saying it or celebrating this holiday taking place in 9 days. If they do my reaction is the same as atheists who celebrate.
As a side note I can't imagine people of other faiths saying it or celebrating this holiday taking place in 9 days. If they do my reaction is the same as atheists who celebrate.
There are members of non-Christian faiths that enjoy the holiday's secular aspects and even some of the religious aspects, which they can do without necessarily subscribing to them. Just like I visited Turkey a few years ago at the tail end of Ramadan and enjoyed being among the crowds near the Blue Mosque on the last night of that festival. It was a nice vibe, even if I'm not a Muslim or even a theist [shrug].
I even found the call to prayer broadcast from Mosques everywhere you went to be part of the atmosphere, though if I were there any length of time (months) it would probably drive me nuts. If you think Christianity is intrusive, imagine the rhythm of daily life so intrusively anchored around that on a daily, not just a weekly basis. Here we just have church bells in some places, on one day. There it's multiple times per day. And this was Turkey -- until very recently, that most secular of Muslim nations.
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