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Neither do I, but I also don't condone taking the rights away from people who are merely defending themselves, and this, in no way, was premeditated murder.
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Originally Posted by Grandstander
Well, if homicide is an acceptable solution for the uncontacted people, why does it become unacceptable for intra-cultural one?
This was actually a senseless death, one akin to someone who was warned not to try and drive during the storm, but did so anyway and perished as a consequence. For that latter death, do we say "He had it coming, he should have known better?"
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Originally Posted by Grandstander
I don't see how a people who have had zero contact with outsiders would conclude that outsiders caused sickness. .
It still comes down to "Not us...kill it." And that was pretty much the theme of most of our 1950's sci fi flicks.
This was not homicide. This as self-defense, exactly the same as someone shooting someone else for breaking into their house in the middle of the night. Those people on that island are quite possibly the most isolated people on the planet. They may not know we're human. They may think we're demons, and they really don't have any reason to believe differently. They live on an island that's in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by dangerous reefs. They don't speak the same language as the surrounding natives, it seems. There are only something under 400 of them on that island. I've also heard it might be as few as 20.
Their first recorded contact with outsiders was in 1880 during an expedition led by a man called Vice Admiral Portman. At the time, the general practice when contacting hostile tribes was to abduct some of them, give them gifts, then send them back to their people, as a way of letting them know of their good intentions. Vice Admiral Portman therefore attempted the practice on the North Sentinelese (the inhabitants of the island this thread is about). They found two elderly Sentinelese and four children. The two elderly Sentinelese died due to, what I've heard referred to as "rapidly deteriorating health." The children were then sent back to their tribe, with gifts. I've heard that the children got sick too: https://www.earth.com/news/sentinelese-defend-homeland/
For all we know, those two elders died from disease, and the disease affected the children too, and the North Sentinelese have been passing stories down the generations about the white demons who steal children and the elderly, and spread virulent demons upon contact.
This is their island. Every coconut that someone else eats means less food out of their mouths. Every foreigner on their shores means less security - more staying awake at night, wondering who is out there. Most Isolated People in the World – http://www.pettyandposh.com
They have no knowledge of our laws. In our society, we have binding social agreements we know about that they don't. From their perspective, maybe they're mindlessly opposed to outsiders, but I bet that's at least partly rooted in some kind of sensible learned behavior. They're in an area it's illegal to go to, so the only people who will usually be there are illegal fisherman, for the most part - not the most humanitarian group. They don't really need anything from outsiders. They're not in in the path of outsiders, and they need every coconut on that island. If they kill whoever sets foot on their island, they're not only getting rid of potential threats, they're getting rid of future threats, and keeping people from lurking, unknown through their island.
We have no right to say they're wrong for defending themselves in this way. It's their island. They have the right to defend themselves however they think best.
Now, let's say it was a group of modern Americans on that island, with all our knowledge, just with the same DNA and potential lack of disease resistance as the islanders. So...there's this asshat named, whatever the outsider's name was...I'll call him Bob. Bob has every reason to know that it's quite possible that he has a disease which, for me, could be a version of AIDs that spreads as easily as the common cold and the chicken pox. Bob has every reason to know my people are extremely hostile to outsiders, or if he didn't, he's a fool for not having done more research. I found out about the North Sentinelese without much trouble, and everything I've seen about them tells about their hostility. Bob wants to be friends with my kids. I'm the chief. Some of my kids are talking about wanting to meet the disease-ridden explorer. I could just express aggression to try to get him to go away, but then he might sneak back when I'm not around and come around the kids when I'm not there. I'm therefore probably going to try to warn him away the first one or two times, and after that I think I'd be justified in killing him. I'd probably be justified in killing him the second time he comes back...definitely the third time.
The guy wasn't killed on sight the first time he arrived. They shot arrows at him eventually, one of them getting stuck in his Bible. He came back again, after that: https://www.christianitytoday.com/ne...ribe-chau.html
The tribe didn't do one thing wrong, so far as I can tell. I don't think they know enough about their surroundings for it to be possible to label their behavior bigoted paranoia. If they know as little about what's out there as they seem to, a lot more will be possible to them than we know is impossible. I think they're pretty much inevitably not guilty of any wrongdoing, regardless of their mentality. I definitely at least think we have no right to judge them guilty of any wrongdoing.
I have no problem with their culture either. If they kill everyone else who comes to that island, even on sight...fine by me. Intruders are doing the equivalent of breaking into their house. That's just more self-defense. It's not like they're near a populated area, or even anywhere near where hikers might stumble into. They're in the middle of nowhere, in an illegal area to get to, where it's very difficult to get to, and it's widespread knowledge that contact with the outside is dangerous for both them and outsiders.
We have to be realistic. These people are being treated like a rare but very dangerous species of animal. We could treat them like the Tasmanian Tiger or isolate them (in this they are already isolated) and pass laws to stop people going near them
So you get some enthusiastic naturalist who is convinced that he MUST get one for Important Research and he disregards the legal protection, sneaks in, is killed and eaten. Darwin award. Sad shaking of the head, but no medal.
That's what we'd say - theists and atheists alike (pace clamour of Some kinds of Theists about the arrogance and wrongheadedness of science). But here, Some theists want to make this a special case of his Faith trumping all human law, sense and decency and we should all make him a heroic Christian Martyr. Don't let 'em do it.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-27-2018 at 10:54 AM..
We have to be realistic. These people are being treated like a rare but very dangerous species of animal. We could treat them like the Tasmanian Tiger or isolate them (in this they are already isolated) and pass laws to stop people going near them
So you get some enthusiastic naturalist who is convinced that he MUST get one for Important Research and he disregards the legal protection, sneaks in, is killed and eaten. Darwin award. Sad shaking of the head, but no medal.
That's what we'd say - theists and atheists alike (pace clamour of Some kinds of Theists about the arrogance and wrongheadedness of science). But here, Some theists want to make this a special case of his Faith trumping all human law, sense and decency and we should all make him a heroic Christian Martyr. Don't let 'em do it.
There are laws by the Indian government to stop people going near them, these laws were broken by the Missionary and the fishermen who took him there.
On the OP, the Missionary paid a very high price for trying to convert these people to Christianity, and should have known it would be futile based on the last contact with this tribe. (2 illegal Indian fisherman killed when straying into their territory)
It makes one wonder just how many native peoples can be converted to a religion, Christianity or Islam or whatever, peacefully.
It is illegal to go to the island, illegal to have contact with the people. By Indian law (the island is part of India's territory), islanders can't be prosecuted because India regards them as a sovereign state and not under Indian judiciary rules.
There have been multiple attempts to visit/study the people and all of them have been hostilely turned away - probably because the first British contact with them in 1880 was also hostile and aggressive (on the part of the British, who captured and kidnapped several islanders).
I don't think your example is quite right, as it covers an ordinary thing to do - more like "they were warned that the mineshaft, which is marked private property, no trespassing, do not enter, dangerous unstable conditions, would collapse and they went down it anyway and it collapsed." In that example we DO say "they should have known better."
This was also not his first attempt to get on the island, it was his sixth, so he was perfectly aware that what he was doing was illegal and potentially hazardous.
Of course, I also don't have a lot of sympathy for people who, say, climb Everest and die. There was what was supposed to be a "touching" true story about a man dying of injuries and altitude sickness who was on the radio with his pregnant wife up until he died. He chose to climb Everest, knowing the risks. Now how is his wife supposed to explain to their child, later on, "it was more important for your father to climb a mountain for his own ego than it was to be here to see you born and be there for you as you grow up." (Which does NOT apply to soldiers, police, fire people killed in the line of duty/public service.)
This in a way a form of accidental suicide and sheer folly ( a sin) , knowing the risks involved.
It makes one wonder just how many native peoples can be converted to a religion, Christianity or Islam or whatever, peacefully.
Not many, if any. Religion was invented by man with too much time on his hands, trying to make himself far more important than the Universe would allow
These natives have to hunt for fish and food before sundown. They don’t have time to sit around and go to church, speak in tounges, or read a bible. Even if they could understand the concept of religion, they would surely laugh at it.
Good article, it may be from the year 2000, but not much has changed in that time on North Sentinel Island!
They survived the 2004 Indian Ocean Tsunami, they can survive anything it seems.
I think that people have it all wrong. I think that the natives were just testing out the missionary's words. They killed him and if he did not rise again after three days then, he was lying and his religion is wrong.
These islanders are treated as less than human by the Indian government and are allowed to kill because they don't have a better understanding of the outside world - much like a tiger in a reserve.
Their right to kill is even uniquely protected, when compared to other Indian citizens, so they're allowed to kill based on their racial makeup. It's pretty sick imo.
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