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Old 06-18-2019, 10:10 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,731,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
OK, so I am not the only agnostic with Christian culture!
As I said before in other threads Christianity is HUGE component of Western Civilization.
Nana put the finger on it. One can enjoy the art -forms funded by Christianity but that doesn't mean that we have to value the religion itself. The de Botton initiative has its points, but the trick is to embrace the benefits without having to put up with the trappings, baggage and disadvantages of religion.
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Old 06-18-2019, 10:48 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,344,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
You've said this several times, and I've asked you to explain it at least 2 or 3 times, but have heard nothing to explain just what is this "HUGE contribution to Western Society that Christianity has made." Will you answer this time?
1. Light and the cosmos

The Opus Maius (1267) of the Franciscan Roger Bacon (d 1292), written at the request of Pope Clement IV, largely initiated the tradition of optics in the Latin world. The first spectacles were invented in Italy around 1300, an application of lenses that developed later into telescopes and microscopes.

While many people think of Galileo (d 1642) being persecuted, they tend to forget the peculiar circumstances of these events, or the fact that he died in his bed and his daughter became a nun.

The Gregorian Calendar (1582), now used worldwide, is a fruit of work by Catholic astronomers, as is the development of astrophysics by the spectroscopy of Fr Angelo Secchi (d 1878).

Most remarkably, the most important theory of modern cosmology, the Big Bang, was invented by a Catholic priest, Fr Georges Lemaître (d 1966, pictured), a historical fact that is almost never mentioned by the BBC or in popular science books.

2. Earth and nature

Catholic civilisation has made a remarkable contribution to the scientific investigation and mapping of the earth, producing great explorers such as Marco Polo (d 1324), Prince Henry the Navigator (d 1460), Bartolomeu Dias (d 1500), Christopher Columbus (d 1506) and Ferdinand Magellan
(d 1521). Far from believing that the world was flat (a black legend invented in the 19th century), the Catholic world produced the first modern scientific map: Diogo Ribeiro’s Padrón Real (1527). Fr Nicolas Steno (d 1686) was the founder of stratigraphy, the interpretation of rock strata which is one of the principles of geology.

Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (d 1829), a French Catholic, developed the first theory of evolution, including the notion of the transmutation of species and a genealogical tree. The Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel (d 1884, pictured) founded the science of genetics based on the meticulous study of the inherited characteristics of some 29,000 pea plants.

3. Philosophy and theology

Catholicism regards philosophy as intrinsically good and was largely responsible for founding theology, the application of reason to what has been revealed supernaturally. Great Catholic philosophers include St Augustine (d 430), St Thomas Aquinas (d 1274), St Anselm (d 1109), Blessed Duns Scotus (d 1308), Suárez (d 1617) and Blaise Pascal (d 1662). Recent figures include St Edith Stein (d 1942, pictured), Elizabeth Anscombe (d 2001) and Alasdair MacIntyre. On the basis that God is a God of reason and love, Catholics have defended the irreducibility of the human person to matter, the principle that created beings can be genuine causes of their own actions, free will, the role of the virtues in happiness, objective good and evil, natural law and the principle of non-contradiction. These principles have had an incalculable influence on intellectual life and culture.

4. Education and the university system

Perhaps the greatest single contribution to education to emerge from Catholic civilisation was the development of the university system. Early Catholic universities include Bologna (1088); Paris (c 1150); Oxford (1167, pictured); Salerno (1173); Vicenza (1204); Cambridge (1209); Salamanca (1218-1219); Padua (1222); Naples (1224) and Vercelli (1228). By the middle of the 15th-century (more than 70 years before the Reformation), there were over 50 universities in Europe.

Many of these universities, such as Oxford, still show signs of their Catholic foundation, such as quadrangles modelled on monastic cloisters, gothic architecture and numerous chapels. Starting from the sixth-century Catholic Europe also developed what were later called grammar schools and, in the 15th century, produced the movable type printing press system, with incalculable benefits for education. Today, it has been estimated that Church schools educate more than 50 million students worldwide.

5. Art and architecture

Faith in the Incarnation, the Word made Flesh and the Sacrifice of the Mass have been the founding principles of extraordinary Catholic contributions to art and architecture. These contributions include: the great basilicas of ancient Rome; the work of Giotto (d 1337), who initiated a realism in painting the Franciscan Stations of the Cross, which helped to inspire three-dimensional art and drama; the invention of one-point linear perspective by Brunelleschi (d 1446) and the great works of the High Renaissance. The latter include the works of Blessed Fra Angelico (d 1455), today the patron saint of art, and the unrivalled work of Leonardo da Vinci (d 1519), Raphael (d 1520), Caravaggio (d 1610, pictured), Michelangelo (d 1564) and Bernini (d 1680). Many of the works of these artists, such as the Sistine Chapel ceiling, are considered among the greatest works of art of all time. Catholic civilisation also founded entire genres, such as Byzantine, Romanesque, Gothic, High Renaissance and Baroque architecture. The Cristo Redentor statue in Brazil and the Sagrada Familia basilica in Barcelona show that the faith continues to be an inspiration for highly original art and architecture.

6. Law and jurisprudence

The reforms of Pope Gregory VII (d 1085, pictured) gave impetus to forming the laws of the Church and states of Europe. The subsequent application of philosophy to law, together with the great works of monks like the 12th-century Gratian, produced the first complete, systematic bodies of law, in which all parts are viewed as interacting to form a whole. This revolution also led to the founding of law schools, starting in Bologna (1088), from which the legal profession emerged, and concepts such as “corporate personality”, the legal basis of a wide range of bodies today such as universities, corporations and trust funds. Legal principles such as “good faith”, reciprocity of rights, equality before the law, international law, trial by jury, habeas corpus and the obligation to prove an offence beyond a reasonable doubt are all fruits of Catholic civilisation and jurisprudence.

7. Language

The centrality of Greek and Latin to Catholicism has greatly facilitated popular literacy, since true alphabets are far easier to learn than the symbols of logographic languages, such as Chinese. Spread by Catholic missions and exploration, the Latin alphabet is now the most widely used alphabetic writing system in the world. Catholics also developed the Armenian, Georgian and Cyrillic alphabets and standard scripts, such as Carolingian minuscule from the ninth to 12th centuries, and Gothic miniscule (from the 12th). Catholicism also provided the cultural framework for the Divina Commedia (Divine Comedy), the Cantar de Mio Cid (“The Song of my Lord”) and La Chanson de Roland (The Song of Roland), vernacular works that greatly influenced the development of Italian, Spanish and French respectively. The Catholic Hymn of Cædmon in the seventh century is arguably the oldest extant text of Old English. Valentin Haüy (d 1822), brother of the Abbé Haüy (the priest who invented crystallography), founded the first school for the blind. The most famous student of this school, Louis Braille (d 1852), developed the worldwide system of writing for the blind that today bears his name.

8. Music

Catholic civilisation virtually invented the western musical tradition, drawing on Jewish antecedents in early liturgical music. Monophonic Gregorian chant developed from the sixth century. Methods for recording chant led to the invention of musical notion (staff notation), of incalculable benefit for the recording of music, and the ut-re-mi (“do-re-mi”) mnemonic device of Guido of Arezzo (d 1003). From the 10th century cathedral schools developed polyphonic music, extended later to as many as 40 voices (Tallis, Spem in Alium) and even 60 voices (Striggio, Missa Sopra Ecco).

Musical genres that largely or wholly originated with Catholic civilisation include the hymn, the oratorio and the opera. Haydn (d 1809), a devout Catholic, strongly shaped the development of the symphony and string quartet. Church patronage and liturgical forms shaped many works by Monteverdi (d 1643), Vivaldi (d 1741), Mozart (d 1791, pictured) and Beethoven (d 1827). The great Symphony No 8 of Mahler (d 1911) takes as its principal theme the ancient hymn of Pentecost, Veni creator spiritus.

9. The status of women

Contrary to popular prejudice, extraordinary and influential women have been one of the hallmarks of Catholic civilisation. The faith has honoured many women saints, including recent Doctors of the Church, and nurtured great nuns, such as St Hilda (d 680, pictured) (after whom St Hilda’s College, Oxford, is named) and Blessed Hildegard von Bingen (d 1179), abbess and polymath. Pioneering Catholic women in political life include Empress Matilda (d 1167), Eleanor of Aquitaine (d 1204) and the first Queen of England, Mary Tudor (d 1558).

Catholic civilisation also produced many of the first women scientists and professors: Trotula of Salerno in the 11th century, Dorotea Bucca (d 1436), who held a chair in medicine at the University of Bologna, Elena Lucrezia Piscopia (d 1684), the first woman to receive a Doctor of Philosophy degree (1678) and Maria Agnesi (d 1799), the first woman to become professor of mathematics, who was appointed by Pope Benedict XIV as early as 1750.
https://catholicherald.co.uk/news/20...ven-the-world/

https://www.catholiceducation.org/en...stern-law.html

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/r...ghtenment-now/
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Old 06-18-2019, 10:53 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,344,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Nana put the finger on it. One can enjoy the art -forms funded by Christianity but that doesn't mean that we have to value the religion itself. The de Botton initiative has its points, but the trick is to embrace the benefits without having to put up with the trappings, baggage and disadvantages of religion.
This is what I have said at nauseam since day one. I am an agnostic Catholic (Christian).

The difference is that I have a deeper connection to Catholic achievent/art than you---------- who sees equality in all art of the world. I can enjoy art from other cultures, but is not the same as the art that comes from my own tradition and culture.
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Old 06-18-2019, 10:54 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,344,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander View Post

According to Julian it is only because of a Christian background that I can enjoy art and music from both Christian and non Christian sourses, regardless that as far as I know no one in my family background were ever Christian.
You are like Sam Harris. You have Christian culture, but you are totally unaware.
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Old 06-18-2019, 11:19 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,731,784 times
Reputation: 5930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
This is what I have said at nauseam since day one. I am an agnostic Catholic (Christian).

The difference is that I have a deeper connection to Catholic achievent/art than you---------- who sees equality in all art of the world. I can enjoy art from other cultures, but is not the same as the art that comes from my own tradition and culture.
I can understand that, and that is perfectly fine. It just is your personal take on it and doesn't have to be anyone else's take. Their take may be for Hindu art and music (1) or Islamic architecture, . I value Not having any particular attachment to any religion so I don't feel Wrong in appreciating any art or culture from anywhere. Not saying that you do. As I say - we have a lot of things in common. The idea that society would collapse without religious social glue isn't one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
You are like Sam Harris. You have Christian culture, but you are totally unaware.
Not at all - like me, there is Christian culture - because of where I live. I can sample it if i like, but I don't Have to just because of religious ingraining.

Oh - by the way. The list of religious achievements don't impress me any more than the Christianity of Newton impresses me - the achievement does.


(1) always like Bharata Natyam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jctdyc2GqQE

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-18-2019 at 11:37 AM..
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Old 06-18-2019, 11:53 AM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,344,722 times
Reputation: 2848
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I can understand that, and that is perfectly fine. It just is your personal take on it and doesn't have to be anyone else's take. Their take may be for Hindu art and music (1) or Islamic architecture, . I value Not having any particular attachment to any religion so I don't feel Wrong in appreciating any art or culture from anywhere. Not saying that you do. As I say - we have a lot of things in common. The idea that society would collapse without religious social glue isn't one of them.

(1) always like Bharata Natyam


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jctdyc2GqQE
BTW, I am not English and always loved the British Invasion rock of the 1960s. That music is part of who I am. That music is totally non-religious except where McCartney talks about Mother Mary----------------it could be the Virgin Mother of God or it could be his mother Mary. It makes no difference to me. I took ZERO offense when Lennon said THE BEATLES were more popular than Jesus, a true statement at that time. The American Bible belt went insane.

I am more tolerant than your average atheist.

One of my favorite by Lennon as a soloist:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCLsa98D7iU

I guess you like Classical music. Here is one of my top five by Debussy. Two minutes of absolute bliss.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgBfvv3G7o8

I loved the dancer in the video and noted there was a bit of rap in the tune,. I can enjoy that too, but I do not get misty eyes.
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Old 06-18-2019, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Germany
16,781 posts, read 4,986,375 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
1. Light and the cosmos

2. Earth and nature
Done BY Christians but not because they were Christians. And they had to be done mostly by Christians because most people were Christians. Most of these big names were also men, but note Julian does not claim these advances were because the people were men.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
3. Philosophy and theology
Philosophy, thank the Greeks before Christianity. It is true philosophy was advanced under Christianity in the Christian world, but other cultures also had philosophy.

Theology, the arguments about the nature of the various gods in the Bible, except the Gnostic gods in the gospel of John.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
4. Education and the university system
Also found in other cultures. But Christianity was also responsible for illiteracy among the people, even outlawing the Anglo Saxon writing system in some countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
5. Art and architecture
Here Julian has an argument. Christians gave us Christian art and architecture. If Europe had been taken over by the Muslims, we would have had different art and architecture. But then we would have appreciated THAT instead. But art and architecture is a big influence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
6. Law and jurisprudence
Because there were no laws before Catholicism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
7. Language
Where Greek and Latin were for the educated, because the religious did not want you to know what was really in the Bible. But it is true we have a lot of Christian references in our European languages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
8. Music
See above for art and architecture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
9. The status of women
Pointing out the few while ignoring the many who were kept repressed (and treated with suspicion on religious grounds) is typical of the religious mind set. And I believe it was Queen Mary who was responsible for the persecution of Protestants, so perhaps not a good example.
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Old 06-18-2019, 12:26 PM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,344,722 times
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes View Post
Done BY Christians but not because they were Christians. And they had to be done mostly by Christians because most people were Christians. Most of these big names were also men, but note Julian does not claim these advances were because the people were men.



Philosophy, thank the Greeks before Christianity. It is true philosophy was advanced under Christianity in the Christian world, but other cultures also had philosophy.

Theology, the arguments about the nature of the various gods in the Bible, except the Gnostic gods in the gospel of John.



Also found in other cultures. But Christianity was also responsible for illiteracy among the people, even outlawing the Anglo Saxon writing system in some countries.



Here Julian has an argument. Christians gave us Christian art and architecture. If Europe had been taken over by the Muslims, we would have had different art and architecture. But then we would have appreciated THAT instead. But art and architecture is a big influence.



Because there were no laws before Catholicism?



Where Greek and Latin were for the educated, because the religious did not want you to know what was really in the Bible. But it is true we have a lot of Christian references in our European languages.



See above for art and architecture.



Pointing out the few while ignoring the many who were kept repressed (and treated with suspicion on religious grounds) is typical of the religious mind set. And I believe it was Queen Mary who was responsible for the persecution of Protestants, so perhaps not a good example.

Another Muslim apologist just to stick it to Christianity, see bold. If not for the battles to stop the Muslim invasion you would be speaking Arabic and the women would be massively oppressed.
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Old 06-18-2019, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,826 posts, read 24,335,838 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Another Muslim apologist just to stick it to Christianity, see bold. If not for the battles to stop the Muslim invasion you would be speaking Arabic and the women would be massively oppressed.
There is something wrong with you.

He was not being a Muslim apologist at all.

All he was saying was that if a different culture -- and he used the example of Muslims -- had taken control of Europe, then the art and architecture would be different.

Honestly, there is something wrong with you.
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Old 06-18-2019, 12:57 PM
 
12,030 posts, read 9,344,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
There is something wrong with you.

He was not being a Muslim apologist at all.

All he was saying was that if a different culture -- and he used the example of Muslims -- had taken control of Europe, then the art and architecture would be different.

Honestly, there is something wrong with you.
Ad Hominem

He is implying that Western and Islamic culture are more or less the same. Like "it is no big deal". He even said he would have appreciated that.

Are you an Islamic apologist? Do you agree Islam is massively oppressive for women, gays, trans, etc?
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