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I'm not sure why you are telling me that not all belief systems have deities and that such a claim is a faulty assumption. I never made that point, in fact I pointed out 3 major religions in China and made the specific point that they do NOT have gods as part of my point that not all peoples created gods for themselves . Do you fully read what is written in posts before responding?
What the ancients thought and wondered about regarding the topic of gods is not totally unknowable. Not 100% knowable by any means , but not unknowable. We can know from the fact that they created various gods relating to important things in their world that they created concepts of gods to fit their problems. Fertility gods to beg for good crops, sun gods to explain the rising and setting of the sun, gods that attempted to explain earthquakes, volcanos, hurricanes, love , war, the stars, the planets and so on.
Science is incomplete in some areas, probably more than we even realize. But the fact that is incomplete in some areas doesn't diminish what it tells us in other areas. We don't know pi to the zillionth digit. That doesn't make our computation of pi to whatever number it is now wrong. We don't know how to completely eliminate the flu. This doesn't affect our ability to eliminate smallpox and create a completely effective vaccine against rabies. Claiming science is incomplete in some areas is not a rebuttal against what science does tell us in other areas, like the conclusions of anthropologists on the lives and beliefs of the very early humans.
Do you or not equate gods with deities? If not then how do we know they created gods? A concept of god is an idea, it leaves no relics to construct any theories. Deities are material representation of concept of god, and those can be found in archeological digs.
How do you distinguish gods from deities?
Not 100% knowable is unknowable. Only knowledge can be measured, it has limits, we know the limits. Ignorance is limitless. We dont know what we dont know.
Same with science, same with all knowledge. Real scientists acknowledge that. Nobody is denying science, no need for strawmen. We follow science where there is proof.
Misquoting and crafting arguments from what you WANT the other guy to have said and arguing against that is fairly rampant among many here. Its easier than having an actual discussion of the facts, especially when the facts aren't going your way. I can name 4 at least here that continually bash atheists that regularly employ this tactic. It severely damages the quality of the place, IMO, but I think its the norm for chat sites. This is the only site I participate in to notice though . But I see it in the politics area also here.
There is a reason that the first lesson in the Bible fables is about knowledge of Good and Evil. That is a unique capability of consciousness only and cannot exist absent consciousness. As creatures of consciousness, our diverse experiences will automatically engender this inner evaluation leading to the development of some "spiritual awareness" or concerns that when instantiated religiously into our lives becomes a religion.
Yes, yet consider the following two definitions...
Religion: The belief and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or Gods.
Philosophy: The study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.
So one could also follow a philosophical path regarding conscious inner evaluation. I'm not sure how you would brand any given awareness that might be gained in this instance.
Do you or not equate gods with deities? If not then how do we know they created gods? A concept of god is an idea, it leaves no relics to construct any theories. Deities are material representation of concept of god, and those can be found in archeological digs.
How do you distinguish gods from deities?
Most dictionary definitions define gods and deities as synonymous. Thats how I used them. Looking back at your post you seem to be using deities to mean religious representations of gods, what I would call idols. But no matter, I am not interested in getting into a dictionary war. Your point seems to be that there could be religions with unknown gods because we haven't found religious artifacts representing them. This is no doubt true, but changes nothing about my point. The 3 religions and the Stone Age tribes I referenced do not depend upon artifacts , they state it openly. Anthropologists studying and communicating with the tribes found no concept of gods in some. Some tribes rejected the missionaries that came to them when they figured out the missionaries had never personally met the god they were proclaiming. To them if you couldn't see it, it wasn't real . Sort of like George Carlin thinks . No artifacts needed, the scientists studying them in person discovered this from the people themselves . Likewise the 3 religions have no concept of immortal gods in their doctrines, nor ever mention them in any of their writings or teachings. Again, no artifacts needed, the religious writings make it clear they don't have immortal gods to worship. There is actually more, but some get obscure. Jainism, for example, another Asian religion that doesn't have immortal gods to worship or appease, but not many have heard of it. There may be more I haven't heard of. But the upshot is an entire society has existed for centuries in which none of its major religions has conceived of an immortal creator god.
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Not 100% knowable is unknowable. Only knowledge can be measured, it has limits, we know the limits. Ignorance is limitless. We dont know what we dont know.
Same with science, same with all knowledge. Real scientists acknowledge that. Nobody is denying science, no need for strawmen. We follow science where there is proof.
Your initial sentence is provably false . We don't know 100% about the human body, but we know a lot. We can cure many diseases, repair damaged organs, install new organs , give medicines to prevent some diseases from even occurring , and so on. But we still can't cure all diseases, and still have no real clue about the human body in some areas. Neither do we know our solar system 100% in and out. We know a lot, but not anywhere near all there is to know. We can map accurately the 8 (or 9 if you are an old fogey like me) planets, weigh and measure them, know what they are constructed of, but we by no means know it all. But this lack certainly doesn't mean the solar system is unknowable, as we obviously know a lot already. Or physics. We know a lot about physics. We can power cities by splitting atoms, allow people to make silly claims and post them on websites , learn all sorts of stuff about the galaxy and the universe , but we don't exactly know what gravity is all about and how it works , and we don't have much of a clue about dark matter and dark energy even though we know it must be there because we can see its effects.
So your claim is nonsensical. We can know a lot without knowing it all.
Beyond that, I am the one following science here. I am giving facts, not anecdotal evidence or opinions, such as a sense of god is innate in everyone. There is zero proof of this. I have relied on anthropology to show societies without gods. I have referenced known religions with religious writings that have no gods in their faith. I have shown how the earlier polytheistic religions had numerous gods that targeted specific worldly issues , solidly suggesting these gods were created to attempt to alter the world by appealing to the gods for help in specific areas. And I have shown that monotheistic religions of the more spiritually advanced kind are extreme latecomers to religion, started only about a few thousand years ago in most cases, whereas the earlier animistic and polytheistic ones that were conceived to appeal to gods for special favors were around for 30,000 years before monotheism.
You haven't offered anything of substance in rebuttal. Sorry, you just haven't.
Time to head for the lake. I'm gone for the weekend
Last edited by NatesDude; 10-22-2021 at 03:36 PM..
Most dictionary definitions define gods and deities as synonymous. Thats how I used them. Looking back at your post you seem to be using deities to mean religious representations of gods, what I would call idols. But no matter, I am not interested in getting into a dictionary war. Your point seems to be that there could be religions with unknown gods because we haven't found religious artifacts representing them. This is no doubt true, but changes nothing about my point. The 3 religions and the Stone Age tribes I referenced do not depend upon artifacts , they state it openly. Anthropologists studying and communicating with the tribes found no concept of gods in some. Some tribes rejected the missionaries that came to them when they figured out the missionaries had never personally met the god they were proclaiming. To them if you couldn't see it, it wasn't real . Sort of like George Carlin thinks . No artifacts needed, the scientists studying them in person discovered this from the people themselves . Likewise the 3 religions have no concept of immortal gods in their doctrines, nor ever mention them in any of their writings or teachings. Again, no artifacts needed, the religious writings make it clear they don't have immortal gods to worship. There is actually more, but some get obscure. Jainism, for example, another Asian religion that doesn't have immortal gods to worship or appease, but not many have heard of it. There may be more I haven't heard of. But the upshot is an entire society has existed for centuries in which none of its major religions has conceived of an immortal creator god.
Your initial sentence is provably false . We don't know 100% about the human body, but we know a lot. We can cure many diseases, repair damaged organs, install new organs , give medicines to prevent some diseases from even occurring , and so on. But we still can't cure all diseases, and still have no real clue about the human body in some areas. Neither do we know our solar system 100% in and out. We know a lot, but not anywhere near all there is to know. We can map accurately the 8 (or 9 if you are an old fogey like me) planets, weigh and measure them, know what they are constructed of, but we by no means know it all. But this lack certainly doesn't mean the solar system is unknowable, as we obviously know a lot already. Or physics. We know a lot about physics. We can power cities by splitting atoms, allow people to make silly claims and post them on websites , learn all sorts of stuff about the galaxy and the universe , but we don't exactly know what gravity is all about and how it works , and we don't have much of a clue about dark matter and dark energy even though we know it must be there because we can see its effects.
So your claim is nonsensical. We can know a lot without knowing it all.
Beyond that, I am the one following science here. I am giving facts, not anecdotal evidence or opinions, such as a sense of god is innate in everyone. There is zero proof of this. I have relied on anthropology to show societies without gods. I have referenced known religions with religious writings that have no gods in their faith. I have shown how the earlier polytheistic religions had numerous gods that targeted specific worldly issues , solidly suggesting these gods were created to attempt to alter the world by appealing to the gods for help in specific areas. And I have shown that monotheistic religions of the more spiritually advanced kind are extreme latecomers to religion, started only about a few thousand years ago in most cases, whereas the earlier animistic and polytheistic ones that were conceived to appeal to gods for special favors were around for 30,000 years before monotheism.
You haven't offered anything of substance in rebuttal. Sorry, you just haven't.
Time to head for the lake. I'm gone for the weekend
That’s another thing about this forum. When they run out of arguments to defend their imaginations and pet theories they throw out invectives.
Have you noticed?
Pointing out that your claims are inaccurate and nonsensical , and that your posts haven’t rebutted anything I’ve said , is now hurling invectives?
My , how tender hearted this place has become while I was away.
Pointing out that your claims are inaccurate and nonsensical , and that your posts haven’t rebutted anything I’ve said , is now hurling invectives?
My , how tender hearted this place has become while I was away.
Have a good time at the lake. The colors are lovely right now.
Maybe there is something like that happening somewhere. In my discussions with fellow believers it is not about religion, it is about spirituality. What is interesting about that is that in those discussions we never talk about specifics of any religion, it is metaphysics. I never ever think about atheists or what they are thinking until one pops up in the middle of it and disrupts the thread. When i do want to learn about a particular religion i go to those religion forums, but not that often.
I had asked this before but it was not answered so here goes again, to anyone who would care to respond.
How do atheists in recovery handle the aspect of the Higher Power in the 12 steps of AA? Assuming they are in AA for recovery.
I also have the experience of talking about real-life stuff and then a theist pops in to share that a god had some hand to play in it. I know in their mind they are probably not thinking about atheism directly (because most don't know I am one). However, mentioning a god is definitely taking a position and asserting a claim.
An atheist in recovery can probably go with the flow as I do with other theists. I never mention a god and it is not really a concern. It is enough for believers that they are allowed to share their beliefs as they often feel it is done for both of us.
Elyn, my question is about atheists struggling with alcohol addiction who are in a recovery program with AA.Not about CD interaction. The second of the 12 step program is acknowledging a Higher Power. As is the serenity prayer. It is actually a central part of recovery. How do atheists in recovery deal with that if the very mention of god makes them feel attacked?
i would welcome a response from someone with a real life experience, not a guess or opinion which we all can have.
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. No artifacts needed, the scientists studying them in person discovered this from the people themselves . Likewise the 3 religions have no concept of immortal gods in their doctrines, nor ever mention them in any of their writings or teachings. Again, no artifacts needed, the religious writings make it clear they don't have immortal gods to worship. There is actually more, but some get obscure. Jainism, for example, another Asian religion that doesn't have immortal gods to worship or appease, but not many have heard of it. There may be more I haven't heard of. But the upshot is an entire society has existed for centuries in which none of its major religions has conceived of an immortal creator god. 
