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1. Faith is practiced by EVERYONE on a daily basis. It isnt just for the religious as 'atheists' would have us believe. You as 'an Atheist' require and practice faith everytime you get on an airplane , everytime you drive a distance in a car, the suitor who picks up your precious 16 year old daughter for an evening date, everytime you have a workman come to your house to fix something you cant , and including a super complex Universe exhibiting great examples of design and engineering as your very own Human Anatomy displays ... was derived from a proverbial accidental Pond Protozoa from accidental dead chemicals from an accidental big explosion of matter from nothing .
unlike you I don't live by faith, cars and airplanes work perfectly fine, people who fix houses are qualified to do so after years of training and apprenticeships, i currnetly don't have a daughter, the universe has black holes, pulsars, and other dangerius objects. why does your go crearted those things and read science books on evolution, astronomy and astro-physics instead of spouting BS about we came from nothing and other regirgtiated xtian nonsense. for the last time faith is believing things without evidence.
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2. Its simply a matter of WHICH faith is more reasonable, believable, logical based on the scientific evidences we have discovered AND what we HAVE determined as only coming from a willful MIND at work (and blind random chance doesnt do it !)
science is based on observable, testable and repeatible evidence unlike your god whose only "evidence" is book called the bible written by superstitious primitives who believes the earth is flat,a bat is a bird, insect have four legs, etc which is edited and translated and have books which are canonized and removed by a committee of religious leaders and clergy in votes
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3. Apologetics is based on the reality of what we have and how it confirms what is absolute truth. It gives the TRUE investigator all he needs to make a rational decision and which Source he should move closer toward WITHOUT having a preconcieved biased Mind . If only 'Atheist' has the will for that.
Apologetics is not based in reality it is defending a position in this case is christianity. aka propagandist for christian doctrine
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4. Jesus' Disciples and Mother were at the cross when he was being crucified and in fact Jesus talked with them from the Cross. The NT Authors , particularly, Matthew, Mark, John, Peter were ALL present as eye witnesses and Paul later met the risen Jesus on the road to Emmaus where he was converted, so, Paul was an eye witness of Jesus and his post crucifixion . Further, many comtemporaries of Jesus wrote their testimonies including Luke, Titus, and others .
The NT was written AFTER these alleged events took place and were wrirtten by people who WERN'T eyewitnesses to those events. Paul WAS NEVER an eyewitness nor met Jesus and Jesus never new paul before his crucifixion
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5. The NT is THE most accurate historical document in all of ancient history and that can be confirmed by any ancient Historian that is credible. The Greek manuscript evidence for the NT is 5,344 copies with most other books from the ancient world having less than 20 .
Herod never slaughter babies 2 years old an under that event is not in secular sources outside the bible and the book of Matthew ONLY mentioned that non event
Quinirus was not governor of Syria when Jesus was born
there was no census asking people to go back to thier ancestral homeland.
The Town of Nazareth was not around during the birth of Jesus. Jthe Talmud listed towns in Galilee not one of them is Nazareth. other writings from that period never mentions a Nazareth. that town was built 300-400 years after Jesus. Paul in his epistles NEVER mentioned a Nazareth.
the 4 gospels contradict each other
some examples
1. Jesus' lineage was traced through David's son Solomon. Mt.1:6.
Jesus' lineage was traced through David's son Nathan. Lk.3:31.
The announcement of the special birth came before conception. Lk.1:26-31.
The announcement of the special birth came after conception. Mt.1:18-21.
Jesus' parents were told of their son's future greatness. Mt.1:18-21; Lk.1:28-35.
Jesus' parents knew nothing of their son's potential. Lk.2:48-50.
The angel told Joseph. Mt.1:20.
The angel told Mary. Lk.1:28.
There were 28 generations from David to Jesus. Mt.1:17.
There were 43 generations from David to Jesus. Lk.3:23-31.
Jacob was Joseph's father. Mt.1:16.
Heli was Joseph's father. Lk.3:23.
He was to be called Emmanuel. Mt.1:23.
He was called Jesus. Mt.1:25.
Joseph, Mary, and Jesus flee to Egypt while Herod slaughters all males under 2 years old. Mt.2:13-16. (Note: Jesus' cousin, John, was also under 2 and survived without having to flee.)
Joseph, Mary, and Jesus did not flee to Egypt, but remained for temple rituals. No slaughter of infants is mentioned! Lk.2:21-39.
Jesus was tempted during the 40 days in the wilderness. Mk.1:13.
Jesus was tempted after the 40 days in the wilderness. Mt.4:2,3.
The devil first took Jesus to the pinnacle, then to the mountain top. Mt.4:5-8.
The devil first took Jesus to the mountain top, then to the pinnacle. Lk.4:5-9.
Satan tempted Jesus. Mt.4:1-10; Mk.1:13; Lk.4:1,2.
Satan had no interest in Jesus. Jn.14:30.
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6. The NT is corroborated by other writings and archeology including Josephus, Tacitus, Lucian, Thallus, Phlegon the freed slave, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, the Jewish Talmud and all of these reveal a story - line congruent with the eye witness testimony of the NT.
No historians of the time mention Jesus. Suetonius (65-135) does not. Pliny the Younger only mentions Christians (Paulists) with no comment of Jesus himself. Tacitus mentions a Jesus, but it is likely that after a century of Christian preaching Tacitus was just reacting to these rumours, or probably talking about one of the many other Messiah's of the time. Josephus, a methodical, accurate and dedicated historian of the time mentions John the Baptist, Herod, Pilate and many aspects of Jewish life but does not mention Jesus. (The Testimonium Flavianum has been shown to be a third century Christian fraud). He once mentions a Jesus, but gives no information other than that he is a brother of a James. Jesus was not an unusual name, either. Justus, another Jewish historian who lived in Tiberias (near Kapernaum, a place Jesus frequented) did not mention Jesus nor any of his miracles.
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7. THE worlds foremost Archeologist of the ancient world, F.F. Bruce, is quoted as saying :' No archeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference' and this is based on hundreds of findings including Ciaphas' Temple where Jesus was taken to, Pontious Pilate inscriptions ...the man who gave orders for Jesus to be crucified, synogogues unearthed confirming the NT scriptures, and at least 6 physical locations confirming various sections of the NT .
Bruce was not an archeologist and never studies or did any archeological works he is a christian apologist and again Jesus and his stories are myths.
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Your wild assertions have absolutely no merit and you should really become a diligent Seeker of Truth before you put on your authority hat. Does your google search function work on your computer ? The info is readily available for all PROVIDING they have the will to do so . That obviously is not in you due to personal ulterior motives.
i should asking you if google is wroking on your computer since you only depend on one book the bible and apart from the canonized NT choosen here are the other "gospels" that the early church rejected:
Story Time –
A whole genre of pious fiction: 1. Gospel According to the Hebrews
2. Gospel of Judas Iscariot.
3. Gospel of Truth.
4. Gospel of Peter.
5. Gospel According to the Egyptians.
6. Gospel of Valentinus.
7. Gospel of Marcion.
8. Gospel According to the Twelve Apostles.
9. Gospel of Basilides.
10. Gospel of Thomas (extant).
11. Gospel of Matthias.
12. Gospel of Tatian.
13. Gospel of Scythianus.
14. Gospel of Bartholomew.
15. Gospel of Apelles.
16. Gospels published by Lucianus and Hesychius
17. Gospel of Perfection.
18. Gospel of Eve.
19. Gospel of Philip.
20. Gospel of the Nazarenes.
21. Gospel of the Ebionites.
22. Gospel of Jude.
23. Gospel of Encratites.
24. Gospel of Cerinthus.
25. Gospel of Merinthus.
26. Gospel of Thaddaeus.
27. Gospel of Barnabas.
28. Gospel of Andrew.
29. Gospel of the Infancy (extant).
30. Gospel of Nicodemus, or Acts of Pilate and Descent of Christ to the Under World (extant).
31. Gospel of James, or Protevangelium (extant).
32. Gospel of the Nativity of Mary (extant).
33. Arabic Gospel of the Infancy (extant).
34. Syriac Gospel of the Boyhood of our Lord Jesus (extant).
35. Letter to Agbarus by Christ (extant).
36. Letter to Leopas by Christ (extant).
37. Epistle to Peter and Paul by Christ.
38. Epistle by Christ produced by Manichees.
39. Hymn by Christ (extant).
40. Magical Book by Christ.
41. Prayer by Christ (extant).
42. Preaching of Peter.
43. Revelation of Peter.
44. Doctrine of Peter.
45. Acts of Peter.
46. Book of Judgment by Peter.
47. Book, under the name of Peter, forged by Lentius.
48. Preaching of Peter and Paul at Rome.
49. The Vision, or Acts of Paul and Thecla.
50. Acts of Paul.
51. Preaching of Paul.
52. Piece under name of Paul, forged by an "anonymous writer in Cyprian's time."
53. Epistle to the Laodiceans under name of Paul (extant).
54. Six letters to Seneca under name of Paul (extant).
55. Anabaticon or Revelation of Paul.
56. The traditions of Matthias.
57. Book of James.
58. Book, under name of James, forged by Ebionites.
59. Acts of Andrew, John, and Thomas.
60. Acts of John.
61. Book, under name of John, forged by Ebionites.
62. Book under name of John.
63. Book, under name of John, forged by Lentius.
64. Acts of Andrew.
65. Book under name of Andrew.
66. Book, under name of Andrew, by Naxochristes and Leonides.
67. Book under name of Thomas.
68. Acts of Thomas.
69. Revelation of Thomas.
70. Writings of Bartholomew.
71. Book, under name of Matthew, forged by Ebionites.
72. Acts of the Apostles by Leuthon, or Seleucus.
73. Acts of the Apostles used by Ebionites.
74. Acts of the Apostles by Lenticius.
75. Acts of the Apostles used by Manichees.
76. History of the Twelve Apostles by Abdias (extant).
77. Creed of the Apostles (extant).
78. Constitutions of the Apostles (extant).
79. Acts, under Apostles' names, by Leontius.
80. Acts, under Apostles' names, by Lenticius.
81. Catholic Epistle, in imitation of the Apostles of Themis, on the Montanists.
82. Revelation of Cerinthus.
83. Book of the Helkesaites which fell from Heaven.
84. Books of Lentitius.
85. Revelation of Stephen.
86. Works of Dionysius the Areopagite (extant).
87. History of Joseph the carpenter (extant).
88. Letter of Agbarus to Jesus (extant).
89. Letter of Lentulus (extant).
90. Story of Veronica (extant).
91. Letter of Pilate to Tiberius (extant).
92. Letters of Pilate to Herod (extant).
93. Epistle of Pilate to Caesar (extant).
94. Report of Pilate the Governor (extant).
95. Trial and condemnation of Pilate (extant).
96. Death of Pilate (extant).
97. Story of Joseph of Arimathraea (extant).
98. Revenging of the Saviour (extant).
99. Epistle of Barnabas.
100. Epistle of Polycarp.
101-15. Fifteen epistles of Ignatius
116. Shepherd of Hermas.
117. First Epistle to the Corinthians of Clement.
118. Second Epistle to the Corinthians of Clement.
119. Apostolic Canons of Clement.
120. Recognitions of Clement and Clementina.
Excellent post. The restatement of the weary old assertions that we ll live by 'Faith' (we don't - we live by knowledge and experience) that Jesus was attested to historically (no, except perhaps by Tacitus - who recorded only an executed Jew) that the gospels are eyewitness (they are clearly so contradictory that they cannot be) and the historical accuracy of the gospels (they are unhistorical in chronology and the character of the people mentioned).
All nicely refuted. It is correct that Bruce was an apologist for Christianity rather than a historian and certainly the claim that he was a foremost ancient world archaeologist is a false claim. His arguments that the gospels are substantially historically accurate cannot any longer be sustained.
Excellent post. The restatement of the weary old assertions that we ll live by 'Faith' (we don't - we live by knowledge and experience) that Jesus was attested to historically (no, except perhaps by Tacitus - who recorded only an executed Jew) that the gospels are eyewitness (they are clearly so contradictory that they cannot be) and the historical accuracy of the gospels (they are unhistorical in chronology and the character of the people mentioned).
Your Bible scholarship is very good, Arequipa . . . but what you seem woefully unaware of is that the writers of that time period were not concerned about linear chronology. We are obsessed with linear time and cannot help but think in linear time . . . but they were significant "event-oriented" . . . NOT chronological or time sequence oriented. Even the begats, etc. were not designed to chronicle time periods . . . but the significant, important or relevant content of lineage. Linear time and thinking is a relatively recent phenomenon in archeological terms.
I went looking for the source of the quote by Pope Leo X (1475—1521) “It has served us well. This myth of Christ” and I found a world of discussions on it.
One question which I found interesting was if the Pope is supposed to be infallible and said this, than wouldn’t this place Jesus in the mythical position for all Catholics?
The Pope is not always infallible. There are a certain set of official capacities that he must be in. I know because I got it wrong on the test.
Well, not to nitpick, but you're wrong - and it looks like you're reaching for a reason to attack the Pope. To Catholics, the myth of Jesus is not at all far from the truth - they believe that it is, in fact, the truth just like other Christians believe that the Biblical creation myth is the truth. If anything the Pope should be praised for using proper grammar.
The fact that they beleive it does not make it true. Did the fact that for so long people believed the world to be flat make that true?
I went looking for the source of the quote by Pope Leo X (1475—1521) “It has served us well. This myth of Christ” and I found a world of discussions on it.
One question which I found interesting was if the Pope is supposed to be infallible and said this, than wouldn’t this place Jesus in the mythical position for all Catholics?
This is why it is important to understand the etymology of words. Perhaps Joe Six Pack City-Data user can apply which-ever "meaning" to a particular word that suits his mood, the Pope is not Joe Six Pack. I'll save the spiel...
From Ancient Greek μῦθος (muthos, “report”, “tale”, “story”).
Pronunciation: (UK) IPA: /ˈmɪθɒs/
Noun
mythos (plural mythoi or (non-standard) mythoses)
-A story or set of stories relevant to or having a significant truth or meaning for a particular culture, religion, society, or other group.
-Anything delivered by word of mouth: a word, speech, conversation, or similar; a story, tale, or legend, especially a poetic tale.
-A tale, story, or narrative, usually verbally transmitted, or otherwise recorded into the written form from an alleged secondary source.
The Pope is obviously not using the American "version" of the word, one in which means something to the effect of an urban legend.
In a more modern polemic, "The Criminal History of the Papacy" by Tony Bushby, in Nexus Magazine Volume 14, Number 3 (April - May 2007), it is stated that "The pope's pronouncement (“This myth of Christ has served us well.”) is recorded in the diaries and records of both Pietro Cardinal Bembo (Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, 1842 reprint)
It is documented by witnesses that this quote came from Giovanni deMedici (Pope Leo X). It is also earlier quoted by Cesare Borgia, son of Pope Alexander XI.
So much for that quote being a mistake. It was probably often said among cardinals and popes. Probably still is in the whispered halls of the Vatican.
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