STOP IT!!!Downtown Atlanta is not that bad (Marietta: transfer, tax)
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There is a wrong and right when it comes to development actually. Why do you think so many cities are scrambling to fix mistakes now? The right model will create a live, work, play atmosphere that utilizes every amount of space in a district. In this case, we are talking about appropriate uses of downtown space. That has nothing to do with me being right or wrong. Urban planners and developers alike will tell you that mistakes of the past are learned from and help to mold future projects.
There is no sports stadia context for mixed use in the development world. A development is either mixed use or it isn't. Maybe if you stopped fighting change so much, you could embrace a more efficient use of land. I know you probably don't have anything to do with this line of work but that is more reason for you to learn. It will help you see your city's current state and it's future in a much better light. Atlanta is going to change just like all cities in the country will and the right urban model should be followed. Nothing wrong with that. I think most people on this board just want Atlanta to improve. You can't improve on something unless you target what needs to be improved upon. That is all this discussion is about.
You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about, and are bordering on insulting with this crap that I "am fighting change."
This is NOT D.C. We are using a different model here, and don't have the largesse of the Federal Government artificially inflating the development of the city with all of the companies/lobbyists/law firms that feed off of them. See, you live in an artificial economy that boosts development. It is like this nowhere else in the country, so I would suggest that you get out in the "real world" outside the Beltway. What you see and experience every day is hardly the norm elsewhere.
As far as no sports stadia context for mixed use in the development world, wrong again. The Georgia Dome doesn't exist in a vacuum, and is as mixed use as an urban football stadium can possibly be. You simply don't get it, and once again are trying to force a D.C. model on a place where it simply will not work.
The reason's you stated are the exact reason I said football stadiums don't belong downtown. Tailgating and parking etc. etc. are all parts of football and they are going to stay and should stay. That is why stadiums are usually built in the suburbs. The land value in most downtown is way to valuable to provide that much land to a football stadium. It doesn't generate enough revenue for the surrounding businesses either. People tailgate for football games, they don't go to near by restaurants like basketball, baseball, and hockey fans. The benefits of an urban baseball or basketball/hockey arena are two different things. There are urban formats of soccer stadiums in Europe that would fit the mold needed for an urban football stadium but they will never build football stadiums in America like that. That is fine though, that's why they are put in the suburbs.
As for Fed Ex Field, it's in the perfect place. Right near a metro station and a highway way out in the suburbs with wide open space. Could you really imagine Fed Ex Field in D.C. sitting in Gallery Place downtown? See what I mean? There is nothing urban about football stadiums. They are too big and can't blend into an urban canyon on a boulevard. One of the few urban football stadium I have seen is U Penn's Stadium in Philadelphia where Penn Relays is held. Even that isn't in center city though.
Football stadiums work fine in urban areas. Check out bobby dodd, it is not in the downtown core but it is still in an urban area and is not surrounded by seas of surface parking. Many people do take marta and it does not take away from the football experiance.
Also go to the varsity before a tech game and tell me people dont go to resturants before football games.
Football stadiums work fine in urban areas. Check out bobby dodd, it is not in the downtown core but it is still in an urban area and is not surrounded by seas of surface parking. Many people do take marta and it does not take away from the football experiance.
Also go to the varsity before a tech game and tell me people dont go to resturants before football games.
Actually, you are right about Georgia Tech. Their stadium is not surrounded by parking lots. It is developed on every side. The area around the Georgia Dome is not. Actually, that is a great comparison. Compare and contrast the surrounding area's and subsequent development of those two stadiums. An NFL stadium would never be squeezed into an area like the Georgia Tech stadium though sadly. The owners wouldn't want it.
You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about, and are bordering on insulting with this crap that I "am fighting change."
This is NOT D.C. We are using a different model here, and don't have the largesse of the Federal Government artificially inflating the development of the city with all of the companies/lobbyists/law firms that feed off of them. See, you live in an artificial economy that boosts development. It is like this nowhere else in the country, so I would suggest that you get out in the "real world" outside the Beltway. What you see and experience every day is hardly the norm elsewhere.
As far as no sports stadia context for mixed use in the development world, wrong again. The Georgia Dome doesn't exist in a vacuum, and is as mixed use as an urban football stadium can possibly be. You simply don't get it, and once again are trying to force a D.C. model on a place where it simply will not work.
Well, if you don't think Atlanta can achieve that level of urbanity that doesn't mean other people don't believe it can. Is that why you keep rejecting ideas of development around the Georgia Dome etc. etc.? Because you think these are pipe dreams and Atlanta will never be able to achieve that type of building density? I have a little more faith in Atlanta than you do I guess. It won't be over night and maybe your kids will enjoy it instead of you, but I do believe Atlanta can infill to that level eventually. There is nothing wrong with building a city your kids and grandkids can enjoy even if you won't be able to. Of course, this is also coming from a planner that has no other reality but the future and plans I may not be able to enjoy. I know people normally don't care about things they won't be able to enjoy in their lifetime but cities take decades to build. It's the planning that keeps the anxiety and hype going. We are always on to the next project never taking time to enjoy the last one. Life of a planner I guess.
Actually, you are right about Georgia Tech. Their stadium is not surrounded by parking lots. It is developed on every side. The area around the Georgia Dome is not. Actually, that is a great comparison. Compare and contrast the surrounding area's and subsequent development of those two stadiums. An NFL stadium would never be squeezed into an area like the Georgia Tech stadium though sadly. The owners wouldn't want it.
Im really trying to understand your poinyt but I just don't buy it.Georgia Dome has:
The Omni Hotel
The Glen Hotel
Phillips Arena
Convention Center
CNN Center with a food court.
Centennial Olympic Park
Marietta/Luckie District (w resturants)
Police Precint
Cenntenial Place Condo's
I mean all this is with walking distance in a fairly compact area.How is that any different than Georgia Tech/Bobby Dodd?
It may not work other places but it works well here.
What you are suggesting is another way to increase sprawl by placing these far out.
You also are using sweeping terms.What works in Atlanta may not work eveywhere else and vice versa.
The only side that really needs development is across the street by the Marta station(Vine City)For the record ,all those lots are packed and MARTA is ALWAYS packed during these games.I live 6 blocks from the Dome and cars are still parking on the street and people pay homeowner to park in their yard or drive ways.
Well, if you don't think Atlanta can achieve that level of urbanity that doesn't mean other people don't believe it can. Is that why you keep rejecting ideas of development around the Georgia Dome etc. etc.? Because you think these are pipe dreams and Atlanta will never be able to achieve that type of building density? I have a little more faith in Atlanta than you do I guess. It won't be over night and maybe your kids will enjoy it instead of you, but I do believe Atlanta can infill to that level eventually. There is nothing wrong with building a city your kids and grandkids can enjoy even if you won't be able to. Of course, this is also coming from a planner that has no other reality but the future and plans I may not be able to enjoy. I know people normally don't care about things they won't be able to enjoy in their lifetime but cities take decades to build. It's the planning that keeps the anxiety and hype going. We are always on to the next project never taking time to enjoy the last one. Life of a planner I guess.
That's just it. I don't believe you are a planner. In school to be one eventually perhaps, but present day? No.
Im really trying to understand your poinyt but I just don't buy it.Georgia Dome has:
The Omni Hotel
The Glen Hotel
Phillips Arena
Convention Center
CNN Center with a food court.
Centennial Olympic Park
Marietta/Luckie District (w resturants)
Police Precint
Cenntenial Place Condo's
I mean all this is with walking distance in a fairly compact area.How is that any different than Georgia Tech/Bobby Dodd?
It may not work other places but it works well here.
What you are suggesting is another way to increase sprawl by placing these
I guess because none of this provides his fetishized "urban wall" effect that supposedly covers every square inch of D.C.
Im really trying to understand your poinyt but I just don't buy it.Georgia Dome has:
The Omni Hotel
The Glen Hotel
Phillips Arena
Convention Center
CNN Center with a food court.
Centennial Olympic Park
Marietta/Luckie District (w resturants)
Police Precint
Cenntenial Place Condo's
I mean all this is with walking distance in a fairly compact area.How is that any different than Georgia Tech/Bobby Dodd?
It may not work other places but it works well here.
What you are suggesting is another way to increase sprawl by placing these
I assume you are joking but I will answer anyway. Case and point. If the Georgia Dome were in an urban setting, if you walked out the Georgia Dome entrance facing Vine City Marta station, in an urban model, you would be at the curb first of all. The sidewalk would front the street with very little room between the street and the entrance to the stadium. If you crossed the street. You would run into another building on the other side. Instead, you run into wide open space, pavement where people can set up tables and sell stuff etc. etc. If you turn right and walk, you run into more open space and parking lots. I know because I have parked here. Now rewind, if you turn left when you come out the stadium, you are in the other parking lot. This model is nothing like the Georgia tech stadium. There are buildings that come right up to the stadium walls. The moral to the story about the stadium is building density. Way to much wasted space around the Georgia Dome. It will improve though. Development will come. It is what it is right now though. John is just in denial thinking it is developed.
I assume you are joking but I will answer anyway. Case and point. If the Georgia Dome were in an urban setting, if you walked out the Georgia Dome entrance facing Vine City Marta station, in an urban model, you would be at the curb first of all. The sidewalk would front the street with very little room between the street and the entrance to the stadium. If you crossed the street. You would run into another building on the other side. Instead, you run into wide open space, pavement where people can set up tables and sell stuff etc. etc. If you turn right and walk, you run into more open space and parking lots. I know because I have parked here. This model is nothing like the Georgia tech stadium. There are buildings that come right up to the stadium walls.
The Georgia Dome IS in an urban setting. What part of this do you not understand?
And as you were told earlier, the parking lot on the right that you supposedly have parked in was built on several years ago by the GWCC's most recent expansion.
Development will come. It is what it is right now though. John is just in denial thinking it is developed.
Development is already there. You are the one in denial.
You need to see this area in person, not on google maps. And no, I don't believe you have ever seen this neighborhood.
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I think most people on this board just want Atlanta to improve. You can't improve on something unless you target what needs to be improved upon. That is all this discussion is about.
