Real talk about sprawl (Atlanta, Dallas: 2014, apartments, renting)

[Box]

Originally Posted by Lady's Man

A question I always ponder is why do people find this way of life appealing? I'm not knocking autmobiles or non-urban living. But why would anyone choose day after to day to drive 10, 20, 30, 40, 50... miles a day, endure horrible traffic, waste increasing resources on gas, etc?

Wouldn't it be nice to walk every now and then... or at least have the option to?

I agree with you I hate how the metro area has very few places where you can just step out your door, and go for a nice walk down a block with businesses and stuff. I think that its going to be more on local muncipalities to start promoting this themselves, but this isn't gonna happen for a long time, if ever. We've seen some communities try this with the whole "live, work, and play" Atlantic station concept, but most people cant afford that kinda lifestyle.

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by Lady's Man

A question I always ponder is why do people find this way of life appealing? I'm not knocking autmobiles or non-urban living. But why would anyone choose day after to day to drive 10, 20, 30, 40, 50... miles a day, endure horrible traffic, waste increasing resources on gas, etc?

Wouldn't it be nice to walk every now and then... or at least have the option to?

You rely on some false premises.

First, not everyone drives 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 miles a day. Some people work from home or close to their home. Even for those who do drive, not everyone endures "horrible traffic." Some people commute at off peak times, in a reverse commute away from the city, or on roads without terrible traffic. This myth that everyone in suburbia gets on one of the arterial routes and heads to the City of Atlanta to work during the height of rush hour is nonsense.

Now...why would someone want to live in the suburbs. Most likely it's for schools. It could also be for a larger home for a bigger family or for a home where they have more land. There are just as many reasons why people like to live in the suburbs as why people like to live in cities. Also, my newer home is very energy efficient, so when I heat or cool my home, I'm probably using less energy and resources than folks with older homes in the city. Low-e windows alone save quite a bit of energy over single pane and older windows.

As for walking....I do walk all the time. I hike up Kennesaw Mtn at the national park that's within a couple of miles from my house. I sometimes walk on the sidewalks that are all over Cobb County or on the Silver Comet Trail. Just because walking isn't my transportation to my job (although it is many days when I walk from my bedroom to my home office) doesn't mean I don't enjoy walking or don't do it often.

[ATLTJL]

It may be 2012, but Atlanta is still the south.

This is the place where 150 years ago the people didn't want to comply with federal law, so they just said we won't be part of the country anymore.

I'm not trying to draw up the Confederate past, what I'm saying is there is still a history here of doing things for yourself and not wanting to deal with a bunch of bureaucrats telling you what to do. Do you really think anyone is going to go for a bunch of arbitrarily drawn lines for development?

Drawing the lines in and of itself would be a nightmare. You couldn't do it without angering someone who was on the wrong side of it. It would be nothing but politics, court cases, and fighting.

I'm a firm believer in the idea that if you don't like something, you should try to change it. But you can't make a square peg fit into a round hole. Atlanta is not a densely populated city. It never has been. Back when it was, the population was so small that it wasn't even ever THAT dense. Trying to make a bunch of laws and cram density down people's throats in Atlanta would be like going to Manhattan and trying to cram sprawl down theirs. You live in one of the nation's capitals of sprawl. It's not going to change any more than it will in Los Angeles.

If you want to create cute little urban walkable areas like Decatur, by all means, go nuts. Then you can live in them and be happy. But you can't force your views on others who are happily living their lives the way they see fit by starting to limit development the way you see fit. Maybe in old Soviet Union, or modern Portland.....but not Atlanta.

EDIT: Neil is 100% right. I live in the suburbs. Why? Well, when I rented, I lived in Buckhead. But I have a regular job with a regular income, so that means I wasn't going to be able to buy in Buckhead. I could have bought a one bedroom Novare shoebox in the sky in midtown, but I wanted a place my girlfriend and I could live and not kill each other. A space where we could get a big, loud, floppy obnoxious dog....maybe where we could have a child without having to move right away. So my choices were suburbs, or urban pioneer. I looked around East Atlanta, but I just wasn't comfortable leaving her there alone when I come home late or travel. She didn't like it either. So we came to the suburbs. I commute into town every day, but I do it during off peak hours so it never takes me more than 30 minutes. Quite honestly, it's only about 10 minutes more than it took when I lived intown because I'm sailing at 70 mph instead of stopping at a red light every 100 yards. Sure, you can try to make the city more dense...but what you're really going to do is make it so fewer people can afford to live there, and then it will become less dense, and then prices will come down again. Equilibrium is going to be achieved regardless of what outside forces you try to put on it, and it may not be the outcome that you want.

[neil0311]

One thing that also needs to be mentioned is that Atlanta is by no means alone in so-called "sprawl" or whatever political label you want to put on it. Almost all cities have urban, suburban, and ex-urban communities. One difference in Atlanta is that we don't have an ocean, river, mountain range, state line, or other natural boundary to check growth or limit it to one direction. That means we have growth in a 360 degree arc around the downtown area.

Given that and other than that, there isn't anything really unique to Atlanta that you won't find in the NY metro area, or the Boston metro area, or the Chicago metro area, or the Seattle metro area, or the SF metro area, or the LA metro area, or DC metro area, etc. This myth that Atlanta is somehow alone and unique in our lifestyle and makeup is mind-boggling to me.

[aries4118]

Originally Posted by neil0311

One thing that also needs to be mentioned is that Atlanta is by no means alone in so-called "sprawl" or whatever political label you want to put on it. Almost all cities have urban, suburban, and ex-urban communities. One difference in Atlanta is that we don't have an ocean, river, mountain range, state line, or other natural boundary to check growth or limit it to one direction. That means we have growth in a 360 degree arc around the downtown area.

Given that and other than that, there isn't anything really unique to Atlanta that you won't find in the NY metro area, or the Boston metro area, or the Chicago metro area, or the Seattle metro area, or the SF metro area, or the LA metro area, or DC metro area, etc. This myth that Atlanta is somehow alone and unique in our lifestyle and makeup is mind-boggling to me.

This. Good post--and so right.

[BobKovacs]

Originally Posted by toll_booth

I think the potential may be higher than you think. The swing vote, ironically, would be the rural vote. If they see how urban planning preserves their way of life, they just might get behind this. And it isn't a new tax.

The "rural vote"? You mean the vote of the very people who are selling their land to the developers who are building the developments that you're trying to control? The folks who are pocketing huge sums of cash by selling the land that's been in their family for decades, that they can't make a living off of anymore because farming doesn't pay the bills?


Head out to Cherokee County some day, and take a look at the "Land for Sale" signs that are on virtually every piece of undeveloped land- everyone up there who owns more than an acre of property is looking to sell to the first person who comes alone with a crazy offer. Many of those signs have been in place since 2006, so these pieces aren't developer-owned parcels that are in foreclosure- they're people looking to make a quick buck. Yes- I'm sure those folks would be quick to rally behind the type of programs you're proposing.....

[JPD]

Originally Posted by ATLTJL

Sure, you can try to make the city more dense...but what you're really going to do is make it so fewer people can afford to live there, and then it will become less dense, and then prices will come down again.

I don't get it. Increasing supply usually does not increase price. Quite the opposite, actually. The fact is, the city IS more dense than it was ten years ago, in terms of both residential properties and businesses. A LOT more dense. As a result of this increased density, you can get a condo in the city for peanuts.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by neil0311

Given that and other than that, there isn't anything really unique to Atlanta that you won't find in the NY metro area, or the Boston metro area, or the Chicago metro area, or the Seattle metro area, or the SF metro area, or the LA metro area, or DC metro area, etc. This myth that Atlanta is somehow alone and unique in our lifestyle and makeup is mind-boggling to me.

Shhh, you're bursting the manufactured bubble people have created to justify spending $100k+ on getting an urban planning degree. Without the "Atlanta Sprawl Boogieman" (or LA/Houston/Dallas/etc), they're just talking.

[Onthemove2014]

Originally Posted by JPD

I don't get it. Increasing supply usually does not increase price. Quite the opposite, actually. The fact is, the city IS more dense than it was ten years ago, in terms of both residential properties and businesses. A LOT more dense. As a result of this increased density, you can get a condo in the city for peanuts.

He means if more people desire to live there the inner city will just get more expensive. That is already how it is now outside of the hood areas.

[cqholt]

Urban pioneers will transform the hood areas and they will become more desirable. Most people living intown are waiting longer to have kids, but once they do they will become more involved. Those school will improve, look at what happened to Inman M.S. and Mary Lin E.S. 20 years ago they were not the desirable schools they are now, but hardwork transformed them into schools that are now busting at the seems. The same thing is happening at schools in Grant Park, Edgewood, and Kirkwood. As gas prices rise and suburban homes, along with intown homes, continue to decrease in value. There are people that want to live closer to transit and the urban core, walkable neighborhoods- not walking to a national park for recreation, but walking to the store or MARTA station.